Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[mithious]

I think you may see a new class of breeders emerge that will take the heritage breeds in a new direction, staying within the parameters of the SOP, but focused on home consumption. Maybe, I say this, because that is what I plan to do. There must be others out there, like me? And this would be good for the breed even if they don't win any shows. I'm speculating because I don't know, we will just have to wait and see how they perform. I do not see a commercial niche for heritage poultry, unless they taste a whole lot better than what I think they will and people are willing to pay a lot of money for that and I mean a lot of money. The small farmers that are raising hybrids on pasture and marketing a "natural" product are not making much money. These are birds with quick grow outs, alot quicker than heritage birds.

No you are not alone. I agree 100%. Although I no longer have cows, sheep, goats and pigs. I have gone back into farming, with chickens and produce. My intention, is to bring back the "Heritage" birds I am going to be working on, to the SOP AND the utility. It's been a while, but when I saw that the good ole BR's were on "the list" I could not believe it. In 50 years, they went from the backyard staple, on farms and in backyards, to "show only" birds. I want BOTH. The utility AND show. Like it used to be, when I was growing up on our farm.

There aren't many people, yet but I think, with more emphasis on the quality of a "Heritage" bird or Standard bird, which ever a person prefers to call them. I think more people will realize that these birds are bred to be more immune to disease, unlike the hatchery messes. They lay years longer. A second? cousin of one of my breeds is 4 and still laying an egg a day. The meat if far far better. You can't even get the weight on a hatchery bird, by the time it should be processed. Unlike the Standard breeds being worked with today, by dedicated breeders that love the "real" birds and what they used to be. I don't think there are enough people yet, but if we promote these birds, show people what they can truly be. I really believe, more people will get involved. I am doing my best to educate as many people as I can. Even your average backyard small flock owners. As someone said, maybe they don't show as well, but they can be a wonderful dual purpose bird. I want mine to show also, but that is just me. I care more that they taste great and lay great and are around doing their thing for a long time happy and healthy!

 

[Lacy Blues]

As an example https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/876809/the-apas-flock-certification-program#post_13329900

This individual is charging $1200.00 to certify a flock as heritage and then $300.00 per year to keep the "certification" current. He has also been implying that the APA is working with him on this program. He has also implied that I am OK with his certifications........I'm not! This individual has been suspended by the ABA and is on the verge of that with the APA.
So buyer beware!!! Chickens are the new Brooklyn bridge.

Walt

This is appalling! Shame on him!

 

[Yellow House Farm]

You know, I've come to see things in a very different way.

For several years we sold meat at the local farmers markets, which on the New England seacoast are huge. I can probably claim rather safely that our farm has put more dressed standard-bred heritage chicken on the market in recent times than most farms in the country. I, in no way, have a romantic view of things. I have put into praxis what most chicken people keep solely as ideas, and this is where I've ended up on this front.

1. Most folks who decide they're going to breed never get past the hovabator.

2. Most folks who decide to market farm do too much to ever get good at any one thing. They'll never be good breeders because they don't have the time to be good breeders because they're trying to get twenty different products to market to etch out the most meager income.

3. "Farmers" who sell eggs and meat for profit are about profit, like anyone else who is doing something for profit. It' not good; it's not bad. It is what it is. They can't lose their shirt on ideals, and half of them don't figure that out until the shirt is being torn from their back. If they don't get the shirt torn from their back, they get a divorce because they're too busy trying to make minimum wage to keep up their marriage.

4. Breeds in an APA sense pre-1850's only existed in pockets, most chickens were mongrels and produced like mongrels.

5. The APA is like the Orthodox Church of chickens, it is what it is, and it's not going to change. Nevertheless, it's going to out last any one of us.

6. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

7. The APA is responsible for the full development into a concretized set of recognized criteria for every single established breed in America today, and the vast majority of breeds that still exist to any degree of quality does so because of the APA. Farmers and homesteaders have done practically nothing at all--at all--to preserve and promote "heritage" poultry, and to the degree that they think that they are independent from the APA guidelines, they're not going to. Obedience is almost always the basis for mastery. The breeds that exist in high quality owe that almost exclusively to APA breeders.

8. Breeding for productive qualities is easy--so easy it gets kind of dull. Breeding for all of the standard points is much more challenging, and therefore, it maintains interest longer.

9. The vast majority--though not all (consider Modern Games)--of all standard-bred large fowl have a standard that will lead to an adequate level of production. That's all a homestead needs, and that's what these breeds are good for. It's a good thing that they are what they are.

10. Basic productivity suffers when birds are overly inbred, but it takes a lot more for them to get to that point than most people on here think. To maintain productive traits breeders need to breed in enough number to select for multiple criteria, which, in my estimation, means not raising more breeds that you can grow out--not just hatch-- a hundred chicks per annum--minimum. Then they need to be held to some basic maturity periods. I'm not talking about pushing them for the absolute best rate of maturity, I'm talking about setting parameters that correspond to healthy development in a timely fashion. This alone will concretize homestead-quality productive qualities.

11. I think that some breeds and varieties in the Standard are simply not going to make it. I think it is more than we'd like to imagine. On the one hand, breeders who are breeding in the kind of number necessary to make really good strides can raise bantams for a fraction of the cost. On the other hand, there simply aren't enough breeders to maintain everything.

12. People play with egg color, but they don't really breed egg color. Legbars are a 20th century British fad that was never anything more than a fairly unattractive bird that no one imported here because they were pathetic little chickens. They still are pathetic little chickens. It's going to take a lot, and I mean a lot, to get them into the Standard, and the kinds of folk raising them aren't going to stick around long enough to get it done, neither are they going to learn enough to do it because, if they were, they would have already learned enough to get rid of them in the first place. Consider Marans breeders. They've already gotten two varieties into the Standard. They are two unique color varieties for a dual-purpose breed. Two colors are more than enough. They're already pushing for Whites and Cuckoos, and the general quality of the already accepted varieties is already dropping. It didn't take long for Welsummers and Barnevelders to fall off the map, why are Marans going to be any different?

13. Currently, a daunting number of breeds and varieties have a mooring with under a handful of breeders--literally. How many breeders of Standard quality Silver Spangled Hamburgs are there remaining? Three? How many breeders of Golden Campines? I know of no strains of truly Standard quality birds remaining in Redcaps, Crevecoeurs, Houdans, La Fleche, most of the Hamburg varieties, Lakenvelders, and Dorkings. I bet if you were to take most of the varieties and breeds remaining, you could narrow it down to under 6--probably more like 2 or 3--strong breeders a piece that raise 100 or more of the variety, if there are any at all. This is where you know there's trouble a'coming.

14. What I'm hoping is that enough breeders will galvanize around the signature varieties of the existing breeds enough to keep them afloat for the next generation. If we can actually get out of our own way enough to focus, we could at least have one variety of each breed worth saving make it forward. Unfortunately, it seems that again and again newcomers are drawn to the more insignificant breeds and varieties.

15. Those who are regular attendees of APA/ABA shows, those who know how to listen and do what they're told--effectively making a kind of apprenticeship--are going to be those who, as they always have been, bring these birds forward.

 

[Fentress]

Many interesting points. I will pick out just one, in re: to #7. I am not surprised that farmers/homesteaders have not made a contribution to breed preservation. I sure hope that changes in the future. I think we are on the cusp of a radical change in how people live and how they relate to their food. A true DP bird that can breed true and make a multifaceted contribution to someones lifestyle/property has a bright future in my humble opinion.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Many interesting points. I will pick out just one, in re: to #7. I am not surprised that farmers/homesteaders have not made a contribution to breed preservation. I sure hope that changes in the future. I think we are on the cusp of a radical change in how people live and how they relate to their food. A true DP bird that can breed true and make a multifaceted contribution to someones lifestyle/property has a bright future in my humble opinion.

I absolutely agree that "A true DP bird that can breed true and make a multifaceted contribution to someones lifestyle/property" is an excellent thing. Indeed, I think that one meat bird (DP) and one egg bird is an awesome way to go for those in need of variety.

What I think really needs to shift is the misunderstanding, which is really a bit hubristic (still I think a lot of us go through it), that we are somehow going to show the APA how it's done.

There is nowhere where the collective chicken memory is so powerful than at the Ohio National. The people of the APA are those who knew and worked with the old-timers who knew and worked with the old-timers. APA shows are where the memory of American poultrymen is held. It's like chicken church. Jerry Yeaw remembers things that most of us can only imagine, and he remembers the tales of those who knew before him. This is the APA. It doesn't need to be corrected; it needs to be joined.

Having said that, yes, my production orientation comes out. We all value different things, but that's a good thing because it takes more than one set of eyes to breed good birds. Whatever little progress I may have made with my birds, I owe a debt of gratitude to multiple mentors and friends whose eyes see where mine fail, and, yes, I've been able to help others see things they weren't yet seeing. It takes a village to breed a good chicken.

 

[desertmarcy]

You're just not familiar with the kind of chickens BYCers own. Why people here have "ROOS" that fight off hawks, foxes, eagles, dogs, coons, bears, tigers, T rexes,alien invaders & communists. Granted, the ordinary sort of chickens you're used to can't do any of that but we're talking about BYC chickens.

 

[bmvf]

Hi,
I invited a young dairy farmer from SE PA over to our thread. He is wanting to add poultry to his set up.
Hopefully he will jump on in and tell us more.
Best,
Karen

Thanks Karen,
I have raised a few batches of chicks (100 some total) over the past few years ranging from barred rocks, RIR's, dark Cornish and Cornish x's. Right now we have RIR's laying and a started batch of rainbow layers from McMurray hatchery plus a few male sex link chickens that were added to the shipment for warmth. I'm looking at this chicken breeding venture as a hobby at this time. The dairy cows are a job and a half type of occupation and will take 99% of my time. I bought our current RIR's for my 4 year old daughter with hopes that she could sell the eggs but we have little takers for $2 a dozen. Help the little girl out! So I kinda took the birds over and she just helps. It got to be enough for my wife to keep track of the eggs (which we would buy) and subtract the cost of the feed I bought for the birds. So I'm doubtful that we will sell eggs or meat but will likely give some away or to a food bank.

I'm looking to start breeding chickens and I have a lot of questions. First, I want a dual purpose breed but an not exactly sure what I want. Some of the breeds that have crossed my mind are barred rock, Delaware, Golden Campine, and Wyandotte. Second, with little time except for winter, will I be able to develop a breed? I've learned that I should keep track of data as they grow and lay. Third, how do you manage inbreeding and therefore finding new breeding stock? How do the chickens from the hatcheries compare to what I should have?

TIA,
Matt

 

[southernmomma]

Many interesting points. I will pick out just one, in re: to #7. I am not surprised that farmers/homesteaders have not made a contribution to breed preservation. I sure hope that changes in the future. I think we are on the cusp of a radical change in how people live and how they relate to their food. A true DP bird that can breed true and make a multifaceted contribution to someones lifestyle/property has a bright future in my humble opinion.

And in along this line of thinking~ the May edition of National Geographic features an article concerning the effort required to feed an ever growing world population; Mr Frank Reese is pictured holding a turkey. Food security is on the minds of many, perhaps it's a gateway for a standard large fowl renaissance.

M

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Thanks Karen,
I have raised a few batches of chicks (100 some total) over the past few years ranging from barred rocks, RIR's, dark Cornish and Cornish x's. Right now we have RIR's laying and a started batch of rainbow layers from McMurray hatchery plus a few male sex link chickens that were added to the shipment for warmth. I'm looking at this chicken breeding venture as a hobby at this time. The dairy cows are a job and a half type of occupation and will take 99% of my time. I bought our current RIR's for my 4 year old daughter with hopes that she could sell the eggs but we have little takers for $2 a dozen. Help the little girl out! So I kinda took the birds over and she just helps. It got to be enough for my wife to keep track of the eggs (which we would buy) and subtract the cost of the feed I bought for the birds. So I'm doubtful that we will sell eggs or meat but will likely give some away or to a food bank.

I'm looking to start breeding chickens and I have a lot of questions. First, I want a dual purpose breed but an not exactly sure what I want. Some of the breeds that have crossed my mind are barred rock, Delaware, Golden Campine, and Wyandotte. Second, with little time except for winter, will I be able to develop a breed? I've learned that I should keep track of data as they grow and lay. Third, how do you manage inbreeding and therefore finding new breeding stock? How do the chickens from the hatcheries compare to what I should have?

TIA,
Matt

Greetings Matt! Considering your scheduling needs to maintain your dairy herd, you're going to want to choose one breed. You probably want to resort to clan breeding, maintain, say, four smaller breeding groups. This is different that thinking of one big flock. Instead you think of four smaller flocks, then ensemble of which constitutes your flock. When this system is mastered, inbreeding becomes a distant worry.

Choose a breed then come back here and find out where to get the best specimens. There are many, many breeds to consider. Select a primary variety from your breed of choice. Start there.

 

[caj1985]

While I have some experts available, I need to ask a quick question. I asked it over on the Dorking thread but no one is around today. I have some Troxel/Tice Red Dorkings that I just hatched. Out of the eleven that hatched three weeks ago, two are MUCH smaller. Should I go ahead and cull now for poor vitality and growth or is there a possibility that these will catch up? They are 1/2 the size of the others.