Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Yellow House Farm]

While I have some experts available, I need to ask a quick question. I asked it over on the Dorking thread but no one is around today. I have some Troxel/Tice Red Dorkings that I just hatched. Out of the eleven that hatched three weeks ago, two are MUCH smaller. Should I go ahead and cull now for poor vitality and growth or is there a possibility that these will catch up? They are 1/2 the size of the others.

Are they unhealthy? Perhaps, they have a bantamizing gene (but probably not). If you're focus is large fowl Red Dorkings, then culling runts is to the advantage of your flock.

 

[Fentress]

I absolutely agree that "A true DP bird that can breed true and make a multifaceted contribution to someones lifestyle/property" is an excellent thing. Indeed, I think that one meat bird (DP) and one egg bird is an awesome way to go for those in need of variety.

What I think really needs to shift is the misunderstanding, which is really a bit hubristic (still I think a lot of us go through it), that we are somehow going to show the APA how it's done.

There is nowhere where the collective chicken memory is so powerful than at the Ohio National. The people of the APA are those who knew and worked with the old-timers who knew and worked with the old-timers. APA shows are where the memory of American poultrymen is held. It's like chicken church. Jerry Yeaw remembers things that most of us can only imagine, and he remembers the tales of those who knew before him. This is the APA. It doesn't need to be corrected; it needs to be joined.

Having said that, yes, my production orientation comes out. We all value different things, but that's a good thing because it takes more than one set of eyes to breed good birds. Whatever little progress I may have made with my birds, I owe a debt of gratitude to multiple mentors and friends whose eyes see where mine fail, and, yes, I've been able to help others see things they weren't yet seeing. It takes a village to breed a good chicken.

It is amazing how much chickens have to offer to so many different groups of people. Wow, I just had one of those epiphany moments. I saw a variety of people at the same time, the fancier, the farmer, the homesteader and the small child with a big smile on her face! There is no doubt that the valued contributions that chickens have made would have been diminished without the good work of the APA. I for one have never thought I could do something better than them, just trying to find what my role will be. It is one of those things that you know has to be pursued because it has so much, obvious intrinsic value. This is getting a little heavy, sorry.

 

[desertmarcy]

I am trying to market processed Standard Bred chickens and have found it difficult. I am not trying to make a profit, just help pay for some of the feed and get rid of excess birds that don't make the cut to keep for breeding to better the breeds I have. It is only me and my DP and we can only eat so much chicken! Trying to educate the public on the better taste of birds that have been grown longer and not butchered at a mere 6 weeks. I was told by someone that there is no one else around here doing what I do, but selling and marketing has never been my forte.

So many people want the cheapest they can find, but there are people willing to pay for quality and birds that are not raised in small confined cages. I've had people give me big tips when buying processed birds, because they appreciate what I'm doing. If I was doing it for a profit, I'd have been out of it a long time ago. No grass range for birds out here in the desert and if they were ranging, they'd get eaten by the numerous predators anyway. Feeding a lot of growing chicks gets really expensive. I can afford to feed them, but building enough secure space to grow them out is the bigger problem. I am not willing to have any percentage of my hard-earned hatches taken by predators.

 

[caj1985]

They aren't unhealthy. They just aren't growing. I am definitely trying to focus on LF. It will be a learning curve. I was lucky enough to get some birds and eggs from this line. I just want to make sure I don't ruin a good start or waste my efforts on birds that will never make the cut. Thanks for the advice. That was my thoughts, I just wanted an established breeder to confirm that they probably weren't going to "catch up" to the larger, more vigorous chicks.

 

[ronott1]

While I have some experts available, I need to ask a quick question. I asked it over on the Dorking thread but no one is around today. I have some Troxel/Tice Red Dorkings that I just hatched. Out of the eleven that hatched three weeks ago, two are MUCH smaller. Should I go ahead and cull now for poor vitality and growth or is there a possibility that these will catch up? They are 1/2 the size of the others.

Are they unhealthy? Perhaps, they have a bantamizing gene (but probably not). If you're focus is large fowl Red Dorkings, then culling runts is to the advantage of your flock.

You have been feeding them for three weeks--Let them go until 12 weeks. If they are still small then, at least two of them will make a dinner.

 

[caj1985]

Hi, Ron!

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Oh, it's cool. A little heavy is alright. We must remember that the bulk of good breeds and varieties were developed when this was a profession. If we are going to do the same, we must approach it professionally. It's not an alternative to video games. It takes getting a little deep, because it's a life choice.

Chickens are a huge part of what I do with my life and with my spare time, which is to say that standard-bred chicken is a huge part of my life. I take is seriously. One can't improve a breed as an after thought. It's like learning a language, you do it or you don't. You can't kind of, sort of study every once in a while and ever think that you're going to speak anything. Dr. Carefoot, in his book Creative Poultry Breeding, reminds us that for the best breeders this is an obsession. I must concur.

I like to master something I do. It's not truly competitive. It's not that I have to be the best in comparison to so-and-so, but I want to know all that I can know. If I'm going to spend the time, I want to see the results that my time deserves. Life is short. I like to grab the bull by the horns and run with it. If I'm going to breed Dorkings, then darn it, I'm going to breed Dorkings. I'm pretty results oriented.

When we get our breed or, perhaps, breeds, it's a no-nonsense, going-for-the-gold sort of attitude that will see our birds transformed.

 

[ronott1]

Hi, Ron!

Hi Crystal!

It's good to see you here.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

They aren't unhealthy. They just aren't growing. I am definitely trying to focus on LF. It will be a learning curve. I was lucky enough to get some birds and eggs from this line. I just want to make sure I don't ruin a good start or waste my efforts on birds that will never make the cut. Thanks for the advice. That was my thoughts, I just wanted an established breeder to confirm that they probably weren't going to "catch up" to the larger, more vigorous chicks.

So, when watching birds grow, ask yourself, is this what I would like my birds to do in the future? Would I like them to be runt-ish until a certain undisclosed date and then suddenly "catch-up"? Now, of course, this wouldn't really happen, but it is a scenario. If the answer were, "yes", then go for it. However, if the answer is, "no", then cull. Now one can only do so many things at once. Sometimes one has to tolerate certain unhappy points in order to concentrate on eradicating something more pressing, but this is a case of something in need of cull.

As mentioned, if they're healthy, you can spatchcock them at 12 weeks, if it's to your pleasure. Otherwise, you can simply cull them.

 

[LindaB220]

I'm going to quote the whole thing because I'm too tired this morning to do otherwise!

So there is a 'craze' going on. Its really obvious. It kind of reminds me of the Dutch Tulip Mania. But not tulips, chickens. At least you can eat chickens and eggs! Some of the craze is going on in a quest to provide colored eggs. The darkest, the bluest, the greenest with out concern for the bird they come from. Places like GFF do a great job in creating a hysteria, a need for an import and then move on. Some will band together and work on a breed to attempt to get them recognized. That is what is happening with Creme Legbars. They do have a UK standard. There is a working group developing a standard. I have no idea if they will be successful or not. I don't think the genetics imported were than great. As a breed it probably will last simply because it lays a blue egg and has a crest. Those two things are appealing to the masses. The masses should not be discounted. You want some of them to become committed breeders. Converting them is a careful process. They don't come from a chicken 'culture', have no idea why the APA/ABA could be important. Some of them feel strongly about conservation without understanding the need for a standard. So you have to lure them in. If they can be lured to a large poultry show, that gives them a glimpse of the bigger world. I think the future of DP breeds lies in outreach to hobby farmers and niche farmers. They ones that are marketing their products unique qualities. To do a demo to a group interested in adding chickens to their mix where you take prime specimens and talk about what they bring to the small farmer will get more of these birds preserved than trying to convince the newly chicken crazed that the APA has value. Because the breeds will be used as intended, so they will be bred with use in mind, not color. This is really hard, but in my area many farmers are showing up at the markets with heritage meats. From heritage strains/breeds of pork, beef, lamb, goat. But not chicken. If they are bringing chicken, its the Freedom Ranger. The PNW is kind of a hot bed of greenness and sustainability. But not for chickens. Other than keeping them. But we have a strong culinary market. Doing a taste test to some of the chefs is a great way to generate interest.

This thread has developed a presence all its own. Instead of being a thread, its more like a forum. It has a certain personality. I think we need to be aware of that. We want people to drop in and comeback....stay a while and learn.

Anyway just random thoughts this morning. I just think that trying to convert urban chicken keepers to the APA is a lost cause. I think more luck would be had for preservation of some of these breeds by 'selling' them to the new generation of niche farmer. But you have to have good specimens to do that and finding sources needs to be easy. Which is why the net is so important. Breeders with strong flocks do need to have an internet presence. You don't have to be preaching on the forums, but I think at the very least a web site is essential. Clubs need to be stronger. Like it or not, the internet is our reality. Its not going away. It needs to be used. My frustration with Dorkings is a good example. No active breed club. Web site is essentially unmaintained. A push for importation with all of its pros and cons. Breeders with no web presence. Conflicting information. If I was a hobby farmer looking for a fine meat with eggs breed, I would pass this breed by. Dorking and Sussex both have attributes that could be very appealing to a niche farmer. But how would they know. Instead some of them are being lured to the 'heritage french' breeds. I think we need to go back to breeding for the farmer. Its what showing used to be about. I think we just need to go about it differently now.

Jennifer

Jennifer, that was a very powerful post. Good going.