Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[3riverschick]

Thanks Karen,
I have raised a few batches of chicks (100 some total) over the past few years ranging from barred rocks, RIR's, dark Cornish and Cornish x's. Right now we have RIR's laying and a started batch of rainbow layers from McMurray hatchery plus a few male sex link chickens that were added to the shipment for warmth. I'm looking at this chicken breeding venture as a hobby at this time. The dairy cows are a job and a half type of occupation and will take 99% of my time. I bought our current RIR's for my 4 year old daughter with hopes that she could sell the eggs but we have little takers for $2 a dozen. Help the little girl out! So I kinda took the birds over and she just helps. It got to be enough for my wife to keep track of the eggs (which we would buy) and subtract the cost of the feed I bought for the birds. So I'm doubtful that we will sell eggs or meat but will likely give some away or to a food bank.

I'm looking to start breeding chickens and I have a lot of questions. First, I want a dual purpose breed but an not exactly sure what I want. Some of the breeds that have crossed my mind are barred rock, Delaware, Golden Campine, and Wyandotte. Second, with little time except for winter, will I be able to develop a breed? I've learned that I should keep track of data as they grow and lay. Third, how do you manage inbreeding and therefore finding new breeding stock? How do the chickens from the hatcheries compare to what I should have?

TIA,
Matt

Hi Matt,
I was thinking, ...sometimes a dangerous thing .

Since you are a farmer, maybe poll just
the farmers on this thread who have already working with a breed which, from a production
standpoint, is working for them. Maybe it will help you create a shortlist of breeds to choose from?
Hellbender has Naked Necks and did well with Australops; Yellow House Farm has White Dorkings.
Who else has what on their farm?
Best,
Karen

 

[pigsflyacres]

Well I went and rode a couple horses and thought about this subject a bit. Right now it seems like I have three obsessions: Horses, Chickens, Neuroscience. I think one could easily spend a lifetime at any of the three and not be a master.

If I wanted a horse for bullfighting, I would look for a lusitano or lusitano cross from lines bred for bullfighting. I would not go buy a Welsh Cob and expect to live thru the experience. You should pick livestock that is purpose bred for your purpose. Or that it at least holds the genetic promise of meeting your purpose. A standard bred bird bred closely to APA standards should be able to meet certain production standards within a few generations. So they're malleable to your purpose for production. I still think it behooves one to think about how they want to keep a breed, before making a choice. Your property and how you'll use it, micro climate, predators, neighbors. Your time flow. Have time at sometimes of the year but not others? All of those things should be thought about if you want to be successful. Some birds are going to suit you more than others. A Lusitano and a Welsh Cob are both horses, but they were bred for very different purposes. Why make your job harder than it needs to be? Because doing anything really well is hard. It takes time and effort to be really good at something.

I think that is very much what I take away from what YHF says. Do one breed/variety and do it well. Really put your effort into it and take the time to create a thing of beauty. And I really understand that breeds with several varieties will struggle because effort will be split. But really, give the populace something. Let them work on the bird that they like to see. I know that White Dorkings are historically most correct. But white birds are just really ugly here for 8 months out of the year. I have a lot to learn and Silver Greys need more help than I feel I can offer. And my great grandfather appeared to have had Red Dorkings. So there you have it. Its what I want. Reds might have been late comers to the party, but they aren't like the Cuckoos. Or coloreds. That is a color to drive you nuts. It is eye candy tho. Its why individuals keep being sucked in.

We have a restauranteur here that is really preaching sustainability. Rotational use of livestock. He bought a farm to provide his restaurants with the kind of quality produce that he wants. Now he's branched out into pork. A lot of the vineyards in Eastern Washington are running pigs after the harvest. Same with orchards. Where are the chickens? A restaurant can charge the true cost of raising poultry for something exceptional. A chef will appreciate the taste difference. There is one restaurant that keeps their own flock of 'heritage french' poultry.

I appreciate how tough small farmers have it. And how hard it is to market sustainably raised meats. Grocery store foods do not reflect the true cost to produce because they are so heavily subsidized. So the market is small. But it is there. I see how really creative some of these individuals are. I'm not one of them, but I want to be a source for something they could work with.

And to that end, I'm going to go open up my replacement copy of the SOP. It came in the mail today.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

. You should pick livestock that is purpose bred for your purpose. Or that it at least holds the genetic promise of meeting your purpose. A standard bred bird bred closely to APA standards should be able to meet certain production standards within a few generations. So they're malleable to your purpose for production. I still think it behooves one to think about how they want to keep a breed, before making a choice. Your property and how you'll use it, micro climate, predators, neighbors. Your time flow. Have time at sometimes of the year but not others? All of those things should be thought about if you want to be successful.
I think that this is very important--very important, indeed. Time concerns, climate concerns-- there are no single combs here. Production concerns. Numbers you're able to raise, etc...

I think that is very much what I take away from what YHF says. Do one breed/variety and do it well. Really put your effort into it and take the time to create a thing of beauty. And I really understand that breeds with several varieties will struggle because effort will be split. But really, give the populace something. Let them work on the bird that they like to see. I know that White Dorkings are historically most correct. But white birds are just really ugly here for 8 months out of the year. I have a lot to learn and Silver Greys need more help than I feel I can offer. And my great grandfather appeared to have had Red Dorkings. So there you have it. Its what I want. Reds might have been late comers to the party, but they aren't like the Cuckoos. Or coloreds. That is a color to drive you nuts. It is eye candy tho. Its why individuals keep being sucked in.
This opens up an interesting question, but it is one that, to be understood, must stand outside of emotions. The reality is that everyone is going to "work on the bird they like to see." Currently there are 5 varieties of Dorking in the Standard. I've stated many times that the three principal colors are White, SG, and Red--the first two historically, the latter because of recent developments that make it important beyond its historical clout, sort of like the Buckeye. I hope the Dorking can sustain three varieties. There is a fair number of people beginning with them, but the focus is not yet disciplined. Nevertheless, three varieties are a lot of varieties for such a small community. In reality, if everyone were working on the Whites, progress would be much more assured and much quicker. Such will not be, though.
If your saying that I should recant on my stance, well that I cannot because it's not so much a stance as an understanding. Things will be what they will be. Either the genetic pool will remain strong or it will not. The breeds will thrive or they will not. It doesn't really matter how one feels about it, and my saying that if we all just raise what we want to see everything will be fine for the breeds won't make it so. However, I do think that folks will continue to "work on the bird they like to see." I just don't know what the result will be. As it is now, when one goes to a major show where breeds might be represented by multiple varieties, there are a couple that are the backbone of the breed that are still strong, and then the others tend to pale by comparison. Now, the reality is that if all were concentrated on the primary one, two, maybe three varieties, they'd be even better. Then we could actually start talking about productive capacity, etc....
Sorry I can't jump on board there, but I think it is something that bears thinking on by the wider community. There's a great guy I know, really smart and determined, who's putting all sorts of effort into recreating Blue Rocks. They're looking good, too, but I don't think they're going to catch on, because Blue doesn't catch on. Now, if he were putting all of his effort into the Barreds, his work might go on for generations to come. Who knows.


And to that end, I'm going to go open up my replacement copy of the SOP. It came in the mail today. YAY!!!

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Hi Matt,
I was thinking, ...sometimes a dangerous thing .

Since you are a farmer, maybe poll just
the farmers on this thread who have already working with a breed which, from a production
standpoint, is working for them. Maybe it will help you create a shortlist of breeds to choose from?
Hellbender has Naked Necks and did well with Australops; Yellow House Farm has White Dorkings.
Who else has what on their farm?
Best,
Karen

Matt, also, if eggs are your first concern and meat is just an after thought, I'd go for a Mediterranean. I think that, when it comes down to it, they are some of the best chickens: Anconas, Leghorns (Brown and White), Minorcas. They're just all around good birds: productive, healthy, hardy, fertile as all get-out. Generally awesome chickens.

 

[bmvf]

Matt, also, if eggs are your first concern and meat is just an after thought, I'd go for a Mediterranean. I think that, when it comes down to it, they are some of the best chickens: Anconas, Leghorns (Brown and White), Minorcas. They're just all around good birds: productive, healthy, hardy, fertile as all get-out. Generally awesome chickens.

I'm almost thinking that meat is the more important feature but I don't want to feed a flock of hens a lot of feed for little return. I also know that I would get tired of butchering chickens that I am not fond of eating. However, I'll still check into the breeds you mention and consider egg versus meat some more. Maybe I should get a cockerel assortment to raise and see how the birds grow and taste.

 

[pigsflyacres]

YHF I do understand what you're saying. A breed is going to theoretically be in better shape if there is only one or two varieties. But that doesn't always hold up. You don't see many WFBS. Well bred chickens are just few and far between...period. When I say let them have something that they like to look at, I guess I mean narrow it down. Certainly don't add more. If you have to have a blue bird, don't create a blue dorking, choose one of the breeds with a blue or better yet, go with an Andalusian. I think Cuckoo Dorkings should go away. I had a pair shortly after they were admitted. I was a bit shocked when I got them. They were scrawny. I moved them on. Its not an appealing color. Leave it to the dominique. I don't even know what to say about Colored Dorkings. They were one of the original 3 accepted in the SOP. But its a color that sucks people in and then they get frustrated. I think it can only be maintained using male and female lines. My guess is that there was a lot of crossing of SGs and Reds going on back then. So I think Red has always been around, but in several variations. I was told that was why it took so long to get Reds in the standard. No agreement on what type red. And while Cuckoo is recognized in RC and SC, Red is only recognized in SC. I don't know if there is enough 'will power' for Dorking breeders working in concert to do one variety right. But I think we are in agreement that the 3 varieties with the best luck are White, SG and Red. SG seems to be in trouble right now. Hopefully things will turn around because they are a good looking bird. I love a RC or Pea combed white bird. There is just something striking about them. But I've tried white birds. They look like they've been drug thru the swamp for 8 months out of the year. I also suddenly had eagles perching high up in cedar and spruce trees . Once the white birds were gone, they went back to the cliffs.

The key is going to be communication and getting the word out that they are a breed worth working with. This can be done at shows if you live in an area with shows. Things are a little pathetic in my neck of the woods. Dorkings have a lot of strikes against them. They don't lay a blue egg, they don't lay a chocolate egg, they don't have a crest, they don't come in crele or lemon blue, they're not frizzled or feather footed, they aren't imported. One of those might get crossed off. But they do taste good and mine used to lay well from late Nov thru Jan when most breeds around here don't lay well or at all unless you add lights.

I see myself eventually getting involved in our local Tilth organization. Education is one way to reach people. Even if all I do is convince them to support a local breeder and not go with the latest import or color variety.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I'm almost thinking that meat is the more important feature but I don't want to feed a flock of hens a lot of feed for little return. I also know that I would get tired of butchering chickens that I am not fond of eating. However, I'll still check into the breeds you mention and consider egg versus meat some more. Maybe I should get a cockerel assortment to raise and see how the birds grow and taste.

The only difference is that they're not going to be good representatives. Meat, both quality and amount is very much strain based. You can get a Rock from a hatchery and then get a Rock from a breeder, or even from another hatchery, and have a totally different experience.

Most importantly, you want to recognize that breeds are at different scales of repair. It might take you a few season to start seeing improvement in the stock with which you're working, and it takes a few seasons, at least, to figure out how to pair everything.

For meat, my top picks are Dorkings, Sussex and Faverolles, then Rocks, Wyandottes, NHs, and Orpingtons.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

YHF I do understand what you're saying. A breed is going to theoretically be in better shape if there is only one or two varieties. But that doesn't always hold up. You don't see many WFBS. Well bred chickens are just few and far between...period. When I say let them have something that they like to look at, I guess I mean narrow it down. Certainly don't add more. If you have to have a blue bird, don't create a blue dorking, choose one of the breeds with a blue or better yet, go with an Andalusian. I think Cuckoo Dorkings should go away. I had a pair shortly after they were admitted. I was a bit shocked when I got them. They were scrawny. I moved them on. Its not an appealing color. Leave it to the dominique. I don't even know what to say about Colored Dorkings. They were one of the original 3 accepted in the SOP. But its a color that sucks people in and then they get frustrated. I think it can only be maintained using male and female lines. My guess is that there was a lot of crossing of SGs and Reds going on back then. So I think Red has always been around, but in several variations. I was told that was why it took so long to get Reds in the standard. No agreement on what type red. And while Cuckoo is recognized in RC and SC, Red is only recognized in SC. I don't know if there is enough 'will power' for Dorking breeders working in concert to do one variety right. But I think we are in agreement that the 3 varieties with the best luck are White, SG and Red. SG seems to be in trouble right now. Hopefully things will turn around because they are a good looking bird. I love a RC or Pea combed white bird. There is just something striking about them. But I've tried white birds. They look like they've been drug thru the swamp for 8 months out of the year. I also suddenly had eagles perching high up in cedar and spruce trees . Once the white birds were gone, they went back to the cliffs.

The key is going to be communication and getting the word out that they are a breed worth working with. This can be done at shows if you live in an area with shows. Things are a little pathetic in my neck of the woods. Dorkings have a lot of strikes against them. They don't lay a blue egg, they don't lay a chocolate egg, they don't have a crest, they don't come in crele or lemon blue, they're not frizzled or feather footed, they aren't imported. One of those might get crossed off. But they do taste good and mine used to lay well from late Nov thru Jan when most breeds around here don't lay well or at all unless you add lights.

I see myself eventually getting involved in our local Tilth organization. Education is one way to reach people. Even if all I do is convince them to support a local breeder and not go with the latest import or color variety.

I certainly agree that finding the breed/variety combo is that exists already is the right way to go, and I do actually appreciate the Red Dorkings. I would say, though, that WFBS are not good grab, they suffered for other reasons. However, NHs, RIRs, Anconas, Australorps, Dominiques, these are all breeds that benefit from being the one and only.

Your Reds are going to be great.

 

[mithious]

As an example https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/876809/the-apas-flock-certification-program#post_13329900

This individual is charging $1200.00 to certify a flock as heritage and then $300.00 per year to keep the "certification" current. He has also been implying that the APA is working with him on this program. He has also implied that I am OK with his certifications........I'm not! This individual has been suspended by the ABA and is on the verge of that with the APA.
So buyer beware!!! Chickens are the new Brooklyn bridge.

Walt

Why is it, that the older I get, the more scams I see? What happened to your word being as good as a written contract and a handshake the same? This is beyond belief, and the sad part is that someone is "buying" the lie, hook line and sinker or these people wouldn't be out there.

I just don't get today's world at all

Thanks for posting that. Hopefully some of those, just starting out, will see it and steer clear.

 

[MagicChicken]

There is nowhere where the collective chicken memory is so powerful than at the Ohio National. The people of the APA are those who knew and worked with the old-timers who knew and worked with the old-timers. APA shows are where the memory of American poultrymen is held. It's like chicken church. Jerry Yeaw remembers things that most of us can only imagine, and he remembers the tales of those who knew before him. This is the APA. It doesn't need to be corrected; it needs to be joined.

This should be pinned to the top of the Chicken Breeds forum. Well said.