Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Vamvakas]

This should be pinned to the top of the Chicken Breeds forum. Well said.

I only buy from the old timers and love there birds but we to stop thinking we live back in the 1950s.. Times has changed much and all we do is pretend we went back in the old days.. How is this going to help poultry in the future? There's always going to be a next generation with a old line and someone will have it.. But then again I am young myself but stupid young breeders think "more lines = better birds"... Yeah poultry world is hopeless..

 

[NanaKat]

Wonderful discussion !

We have Wyandotte and they are good winter layers as well as lovely table birds.

 

[bmvf]

The only difference is that they're not going to be good representatives. Meat, both quality and amount is very much strain based. You can get a Rock from a hatchery and then get a Rock from a breeder, or even from another hatchery, and have a totally different experience.

Most importantly, you want to recognize that breeds are at different scales of repair. It might take you a few season to start seeing improvement in the stock with which you're working, and it takes a few seasons, at least, to figure out how to pair everything.

For meat, my top picks are Dorkings, Sussex and Faverolles, then Rocks, Wyandottes, NHs, and Orpingtons.

Soon after posting I thought I'd get such a reply! I understand that hatchery stock has been bred for what they feel appeals to their customers. I guess to read into your comment, I could then take any 'dual purpose' breed and try to breed it better? With the Wyandottes, I heard that they might have lower fertility because they have more feathers near the vent. Has anybody heard of this?

Sorry if my questions are basic and a little off topic with this thread, maybe I should start a thread "breeding for beginners" or something.

 

[gjensen]

Joseph, it was good to read your posts and others. Some interesting ideas.

I would like to contribute a few thoughts on the topics discussed.

Concerning all of the new breed fads. I do not get all excited about it either. I do feel like some of it is natural. How did we get all that we do now? Most were imports at some time.
It seams that poultry keeping has seen it's booms and busts before.

You guys are right. People are going to keep what they want. And they should. If that is what they like, then so be it. I have chosen to try breeds that are accepted, and I think there should be a priority there. That is not saying that any other has no value though. Their value might be more subjective here. The value of accepted breeds and varieties are more objective. They have the backing of an established and respected organization.

Concerning breeding for production, and it's simplicity. I would say yes and no. Depends how serious you want to get. It can be very complicated and difficult, and it can be kept on an elementary level. I think this is a mute point really, because I have never known anyone to take it that seriously.
I am not especially religious about it. You will not find me trap nesting, keeping extensive records, or testing sires. I do want to be mindful of it along the way. I think it is a use it or lose it kind of thing. If we do not put any pressure on these points, we will lose them the same as if we did not put pressure on size.
I think it would be a shame to let any livestock devolve into purely ornamental specimens. If we are honest with ourselves, we will realize that breeding for type alone is not going to automatically make the birds productive. It is certainly a major player and gives the birds potential. There is jut a little more to it than that.

I have come to a place where I want both. I grow blueberries and they are beautiful plants, but they would not be the same if they did not produce a lot of quality blueberries. I started in blueberries for the blueberries, and appreciate that they are attractive, and a pleasure to own. I see the berry, the qualities of the berries, how many they produce, when they produce them, and how they produce them as traits that the particular variety has. An identical plant that did not have these characteristics is another variety all together.
I feel that the production characteristics of a given line of birds as traits that the birds have. If they are poor layers, poor growers, poor hatchers, etc. I see those characteristics as faults just as I would poor this and that. I am looking at the characteristics of the whole bird.
I would certainly never recommend anyone committing to marriage just because they think the potential mate looks good. That is part of it, but not all of it.

The challenge of owning and breeding birds that look the part and play the part appeals to me.

I like the variety in poultry breeds, and poultry keepers. I have my perspective, but I enjoy the variety of perspectives. There is a lot of ways to do this, and a lot of different things to do.

What the birds need is more able bodied dedicated breeders. That is where we are short. The more quality people learning this craft, the more breeds and varieties will hang around as a result.
I do not know many of those. A lot of buyers, and keepers maybe. I have noticed some that frequent this thread, that are putting real effort into it. Some that are not. Some are like me, and plugging away, but time will tell whether or not we will be any good at it.

 

[ocap]

I feel that the production characteristics of a given line of birds as traits that the birds have. If they are poor layers, poor growers, poor hatchers, etc. I see those characteristics as faults just as I would poor this and that. I am looking at the characteristics of the whole bird.
I would certainly never recommend anyone committing to marriage just because they think the potential mate looks good. That is part of it, but not all of it.

The challenge of owning and breeding birds that look the part and play the part appeals to me.

this part of the post applies to where I am, last spring purchased four breeds that appealed to me visually, learned the personalities over the summer, now I am evaluating the production (how to evaluate production is still a question for my particular situation).

 

[RedRidge]

 


Thanks Karen,
I have raised a few batches of chicks (100 some total) over the past few years ranging from barred rocks, RIR's, dark Cornish and Cornish x's.  Right now we have RIR's laying and a started batch of rainbow layers from McMurray hatchery plus a few male sex link chickens that were added to the shipment for warmth.  I'm looking at this chicken breeding venture as a hobby at this time.  The dairy cows are a job and a half type of occupation and will take 99% of my time.  I bought our current RIR's for my 4 year old daughter with hopes that she could sell the eggs but we have little takers for $2 a dozen.  Help the little girl out!  So I kinda took the birds over and she just helps.  It got to be enough for my wife to keep track of the eggs (which we would buy) and subtract the cost of the feed I bought for the birds.  So I'm doubtful that we will sell eggs or meat but will likely give some away or to a food bank.

I'm looking to start breeding chickens and I have a lot of questions.  First, I want a dual purpose breed but an not exactly sure what I want.  Some of the breeds that have crossed my mind are barred rock, Delaware, Golden Campine, and Wyandotte.  Second, with little time except for winter, will I be able to develop a breed?  I've learned that I should keep track of data as they grow and lay.  Third, how do you manage inbreeding and therefore finding new breeding stock?  How do the chickens from the hatcheries compare to what I should have?

TIA,
Matt

 Hi Matt,
 I was thinking, ...sometimes a dangerous thing .     Since you are a farmer, maybe poll just
the farmers on this thread who have already working with a breed which, from a production
standpoint,  is working for them. Maybe it will help you create a shortlist of breeds to choose from?
 Hellbender has Naked Necks  and did well with Australops; Yellow House Farm has White Dorkings.
Who else has what on their farm?
 Best,
 Karen

I farm for a living. Each breed of livestock is not required to "make a profit" but each is required to feed us and be self supporting (as a minimum).
I have primarily HRIR and Rhodebars, but keep a pen of production layers who are egg laying, flash on the pan, machines. In the past they have supported the other two breeds. Within the next 2 years (i simply don't have enough quantity yet) those breeds will be productive enough to be self supporting for both meat and eggs.
We are a farm... Our number 1 rule: "You must have a job and earn your keep" (that applies to teenagers too). ;-)

 

[Serica]

Interesting thread and perhaps a bit ... disheartening? We have a small flock of Silkies for fun and have decided to expand into a dual purpose bird for meat and eggs. I've done some checking around and reading before making the plunge. The heritage birds appealed to me and my husband as they represented so many things we are loosing to a faster, more, poor quality society we are turning in to.

I guess I'm feeling like it's pointless to try because there's no way we can produce hundreds of birds a year. It's just him and I on 5 acres of land. Am I right in feeling its pointless and we can't even make a small contribution?

 

[Baybrio]

How do you folks judge "quality" meat? It seems like such a daunting task. If I were to go to a chef and say my chickens have better "quality" meat, and you can taste it, what would that mean? I ask here instead of the Meat Bird forum because you folks are more focused on specific breeds of heritage birds, which I understand have different "flesh" (is that the right term?) characteristics.

Also, do some breeds produce high quality meat only if fed in a specific way? For example, my beef cattle are fed hay in the winter and grass in summer. I picked my cows because they can produce a quality calf that can be raised to market age also on hay and pasture. The meat turns out the way it does because of the genetics, but also because of my management practices. I've read about the Bresse (I think that is the breed of chicken I'm thinking about). From what I've read the Bresse produces high quality meat in Europe in good part because of the way its raised and fed. Is that true with most chicken breeds?

I keep getting more intimidated the more I think about these things.I have tried a small number of birds from different breeds, now I'd like to move forward. I want to be a good steward of a heritage breed, I believe it is important work. I'm ready to:

1. Pick a breed I want to look at (this may be the only one I've succeeded with)
1a. Pick a breed that does well in my micro-climate (I feel like I live in a Prairie wind tunnel)
2. Start with "good" stock (become educated on what good stock is, listen to people with experience, listen to other people with experience)
3. Be true to the breed's characteristics
4. Keep enough birds so you can cull "hard" only keeping the best. This is where my question on "quality" meat comes in.
5. Make sure you breed in such a way that reproductive vigor is maintained
6. Share your knowledge
7. Just get started
8. All other things I've forgotten
9. Find out the breed or birds you started with will never do what you wanted (see 1.)

 

[Fentress]

Interesting thread and perhaps a bit ... disheartening? We have a small flock of Silkies for fun and have decided to expand into a dual purpose bird for meat and eggs. I've done some checking around and reading before making the plunge. The heritage birds appealed to me and my husband as they represented so many things we are loosing to a faster, more, poor quality society we are turning in to.

I guess I'm feeling like it's pointless to try because there's no way we can produce hundreds of birds a year. It's just him and I on 5 acres of land. Am I right in feeling its pointless and we can't even make a small contribution?
I understand how you feel. I started out 2 years ago with supposedly DP birds (NH, BR, SP) from a hatchery. I was dissapointed with the meat qualities of the birds and have since been told that in general, those birds are not standard bred and in fact were probably crossed with Leghorn or other layer types to increase egg production. It makes sense to me, because they have been fantastic layers. I have standard bred BR due to hatch in a few days. Will I succeed as a breeder? I don't know. But, I do feel that I am supporting the breed by buying from a breeder. And is it not better, that I have standard bred poultry on my property instead of hatchery stock, even if I don't ever become a master breeder. My suggestion is go get the chickens you want and above all else, make sure you enjoy them. If you focus on hatching just one breed and good selection practices, I will bet that you will do OK. At least that is my plan.

 

[ocap]

Interesting thread and perhaps a bit ... disheartening? We have a small flock of Silkies for fun and have decided to expand into a dual purpose bird for meat and eggs. I've done some checking around and reading before making the plunge. The heritage birds appealed to me and my husband as they represented so many things we are loosing to a faster, more, poor quality society we are turning in to.

I guess I'm feeling like it's pointless to try because there's no way we can produce hundreds of birds a year. It's just him and I on 5 acres of land. Am I right in feeling its pointless and we can't even make a small contribution?

I am new at this but I will relate my experience.
Spring 2013 I purchased three breeds from Mr. Urch in Minnesota. Later, I received my secondary purchase from a hatchery. One of the breeds was the same so I (in my limited experience) can see the difference in quality and the difference is real not just hype trying to sell more expensive birds.
Now a year later, I can see the difference in the hens and which I want to breed from with just three hens of one breed. In my opinion, the progress and joy can happen with a flock of five and hatching only ten, keeping the best one or two, the numbers can be smaller, joy is still there, I might not show and if I do the champions probably won't come from my flock.

I am still having a difficult time trying to decide on one breed