Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[bnjrob]

I agree. I always considered Mottled Javas more of a "Splash bird". I just figured they called them Mottled because I didn't remember seeing the term "Splash" back in the old texts. I thought splash was a more recent term. One thing, Speckled Sussex also have the mo gene. I am intrigued by it, tho it is too complicated a pattern for me to breed at my age.
I like to go looking for articles on how to breed Speckled Sussex correctly. Was digging in a book database a while back and came across a small article. Only time I have ever seen the advice. If memory serves me correctly, it was the legendaty Sussex Judge Clem Watson who wrote it. I remember I was searching specifically for his works that night because they are so hard to find. It was advice on getting the tipping smaller on the Speckled Sussex. The author stated that the thing to do was to work on the ground color. To remove all peppering and deepen the hue to that rich magogany instead of the lighter shades. I know Speckled Sussex are a tri-colored breed and Mottled Javas are a 2 color breed. Still , it caught my attention he was saying to work on the ground color. I wish I knew why and how the ground color effects the color way at the other end of the feather. I think Speckled Sussex as a whole need a lot of work on the tipping. I see a lot more I would also called "Spangled".
Best Regards,
Karen

I'll have to check out the Sussex info and see if I can use any of it as we work with our Mottled Javas. I have noticed in some of our birds that are more black, they more often have more crisp mottled spots than the whiter birds that look more splashy.

 

[bnjrob]

All mottled large fowl are in need of attention when it comes to the quality of mottling (Anconas, Javas, Sussex, Houdans, OEGs). I'm not sure that the Mottled Javas ever really received the kind of refinement breeding that Anconas received. Indeed, I've read various passages that asserted that they had not.

Nope, Mottled Javas have not had much attention at all. Javas in general were mostly neglected and Mottleds seem to have had less work done on them than Blacks. Most of the photos I see of those people with Mottled Javas are all pretty splashy looking. Sometimes it seems like most people almost prefer the whitest of the Mottled Javas instead of ones that are black with more defined white tips.

These days, most of the newbies are mesmerized with the "Auburns" and "Silvers" that have been recently bred and there is a backyard breeding frenzy going on of those colors while the Blacks, Mottleds, and the few White Javas out there are getting brushed aside.

 

[bnjrob]

I'm also having trouble with the darker birds winding up with more pink soled feet. (I've got Black Javas. They are black birds that are supposed to have dark eyes, black shanks, black toe-tops, and yellow soles.) My dark birds tend to have pink soles, and the yellow-soled birds are too light. I figure it is going to take me 3-5 years to combine those traits into one or two birds, and several more years before it is even remotely "fixed" in the flock. Maybe more, because I have no idea what hidden pitfalls will show up to mess up the plans.

Paying attention to color would ordinarily take a back seat to structure of the bird, but my flock is small and I would like to keep it closed. I can't afford to lose some of these recessive breed characteristics while I'm working on the body shape. It's a balancing act.

Wing tags and toe punching have helped tremendously. I have been setting up complementary breeding pairs. I make sure that at least one bird in each pair has definite yellow soles so even if the resulting chicks have pink soles, in theory they will be split for yellow and could pass on the yellow trait to some of their offspring. Eggs are separated in the hatcher so I know which chicks came from which pairings. Chicks get toe-punched when I remove them from the hatcher. They go into a small indoor brooder for a couple of days, until I am sure they are eating and drinking and bouncing around. When they are a few days old I wing-tag them and put them in the large brooder.

The wing-tag data has turned out to be invaluable. My notes for several of the darker chicks say "faint yellow" for the soles when they were only a few days old. Now that the chicks are a couple of months old the "faint yellow" has disappeared and they all look pink-soled. But I can go back and see which birds looked like they had some yellow when they were younger. Sure enough, if I compare them with a truly pink-soled bird in the right light I can still hallucinate a faint yellow cast to the soles on the ones that were labeled "faint yellow" when hatched. I still wouldn't expect them to pass muster at a show, but I would feel more comfortable about breeding the ones that had "faint yellow" as chicks than I would about breeding the ones that never had yellow - as long as their mate had definite yellow soles.

We'll see if it works. If not, I will eat well. Can't wait until I get to the point where I can cull all the pink-soled birds without worrying about losing those dark genes from the flock. It will come eventually. If not, at least I will eat well

We have Blacks and Mottleds but we concentrate on our Mottleds. Out of both groups, we have birds that have come up with red and gold feathering in some of the males and these non-standard colored birds are having the pinker or faint yellow fading feet. I've thought about getting more in depth with the color genetics like some of the people have that are playing with the "Auburn" birds, but so far I haven't seen that knowledge help them much with producing good birds, so I haven't bothered to delve very deep into the super-scientific genetics stuff. Considering that Monte Bowen has mentioned in newsletter notes that even he has his Blacks come up with pink feet - and he's had them for eons - I figure it's just one of those things we're always going to be working on.

 

[3riverschick]

So...hellbender...you been up to Wisconsin bunny buying. Or was it Stroudsburg or VA?
I'm looking for Florida Whites too but that is way too rich for my blood!

 

[pigsflyacres]

We have Blacks and Mottleds but we concentrate on our Mottleds. Out of both groups, we have birds that have come up with red and gold feathering in some of the males and these non-standard colored birds are having the pinker or faint yellow fading feet. I've thought about getting more in depth with the color genetics like some of the people have that are playing with the "Auburn" birds, but so far I haven't seen that knowledge help them much with producing good birds, so I haven't bothered to delve very deep into the super-scientific genetics stuff. Considering that Monte Bowen has mentioned in newsletter notes that even he has his Blacks come up with pink feet - and he's had them for eons - I figure it's just one of those things we're always going to be working on.

I bolded this because I thought it was important. I think you can get too wound up in the genetics and forget the bird. Go back to me and my theoretical experiment with using Red Dorkings to improve SGs. According to the chicken calculator, its pretty easy. But the experienced folks know that you fight brassiness forever. Because the chicken calculator only does the cross you ask it to do. There are a lot of genes hiding there waiting to come out and you have no idea what is there. And its not just color. The whole topic of lethal genes came up and I would hazard that every breed has a 'lethal' gene waiting to crop up. They're living breathing animals and we manipulate their genes to produce something that we want. What do we expect?

Those of you working on difficult colors/patterns, I salute you. No easy thing to get it all right in one chicken. This might very well be why the Red Dorking is in decent shape, The wild pattern is not mutated. Its the chicken default. One less thing to get side tracked by. Its hard enough to get a solid color like white or black right, mottled? That's much more difficult.

Jennifer

 

[gjensen]

We have Blacks and Mottleds but we concentrate on our Mottleds. Out of both groups, we have birds that have come up with red and gold feathering in some of the males and these non-standard colored birds are having the pinker or faint yellow fading feet. I've thought about getting more in depth with the color genetics like some of the people have that are playing with the "Auburn" birds, but so far I haven't seen that knowledge help them much with producing good birds, so I haven't bothered to delve very deep into the super-scientific genetics stuff. Considering that Monte Bowen has mentioned in newsletter notes that even he has his Blacks come up with pink feet - and he's had them for eons - I figure it's just one of those things we're always going to be working on.

My tendency is to resist color genetics. I find my self interested point by point. I try to understand what I see, and it helps me see the big picture. Really though, you could leave it out all together and still breed good birds. Learning to breed the color, to me, has had little to do with anything more than learning to breed the color.

All of that changes when we delve into crossing breeds or varieties with a goal. Then I think it is helpful to know where your hang ups will be ahead of time.

I am concerned with two colors that are related to each other. Black tailed buff, and black tailed red. None of the things that I have learned about breeding the two colors has come from learning the genetics behind the color. No more than what observation has taught me.

Now when we get to points that are giving us trouble, it is certainly helpful to dig into it a bit. Fixing these things might involve some test mating etc. Understanding what is being inherited, and how it is being inherited is helpful. It might be helpful to go the extra steps, rather than deal with it for eons.

 

[3riverschick]

I am concerned with two colors that are related to each other. Black tailed buff, and black tailed red. None of the things that I have learned about breeding the two colors has come from learning the genetics behind the color. No more than what observation has taught me.

Black-Tailed Red is a fascinating family of colors, all four of them .

Fortunately they all are made on eWh which makes things easier.

1.Black-Tailed Bed ( orange toned , being BTB w/ Mh = Red Brown as in New Hampshire,

no black stripe in male's lower hackle ) : s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di Mh/Mh ;

2. same NH color but add Ml and get black stripe in lower hackle : s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di Mh/Mh Ml/Ml ;

3. Black-Tailed Red w/o Dilute but add Db and get a darker New Hampshire : s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di Mh/Mh Db/Db ;

4. add "recessive blacks" and get Exhibition Rhode Island Red : s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di Mh/Mh Db/Db "rb/rb"

All four colors separated from each other by only 1-2 genes per color. I ran into it when working with Black-Tailed Buff Marans.

Folk kept saying they should have Co, but it just didn't track. They should have Mh instead.
=================================
Black-Tailed Buff, all three hues made on eWh:

1. s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di Mh/Mh

(deeper, cleaner shade gold than if Co involved.)

2. s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di Co/Co

3. s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Di/Di Mh/Mh Db/Db Cb/Cbn and turns Buff to Yellow tone. Black only in wings and tail.

Much variation of color in different breeds in BTB. All credit to Van Dort and Hancox ,

"The Genetics Of Chicken Colors-The Basics".

Best Regards,
Karen

 

[fowlman01]

Nope, Mottled Javas have not had much attention at all. Javas in general were mostly neglected and Mottleds seem to have had less work done on them than Blacks. Most of the photos I see of those people with Mottled Javas are all pretty splashy looking. Sometimes it seems like most people almost prefer the whitest of the Mottled Javas instead of ones that are black with more defined white tips.

These days, most of the newbies are mesmerized with the "Auburns" and "Silvers" that have been recently bred and there is a backyard breeding frenzy going on of those colors while the Blacks, Mottleds, and the few White Javas out there are getting brushed aside.

This is common in other breeds too. It never seems to help the breed overall.

Walt

 

[Lacy Blues]

I agree. I always considered Mottled Javas more of a "Splash bird". I just figured they called them Mottled because I didn't remember seeing the term "Splash" back in the old texts. I thought splash was a more recent term. One thing, Speckled Sussex also have the mo gene. I am intrigued by it, tho it is too complicated a pattern for me to breed at my age.

Splash is white with a smattering of black or blue feathers (not even whole feathers) scattered over the body in random fashion. Mottled is black with v-shaped white feather tips that are not random. I think that hatcheries help to confuse the issue when they say things like "the Andalusian doesn't breed true, but rather if you breed two blues together, you will get 50% blues, 25% black and 25% mottled or splashed." I've also heard the adjective "splashed" applied to Anconas. It drives me crazy. They are propagating their ignorance onto an unsuspecting public who expects them to know what they're talking about.

We have Blacks and Mottleds but we concentrate on our Mottleds. Out of both groups, we have birds that have come up with red and gold feathering in some of the males and these non-standard colored birds are having the pinker or faint yellow fading feet. I've thought about getting more in depth with the color genetics like some of the people have that are playing with the "Auburn" birds, but so far I haven't seen that knowledge help them much with producing good birds, so I haven't bothered to delve very deep into the super-scientific genetics stuff. Considering that Monte Bowen has mentioned in newsletter notes that even he has his Blacks come up with pink feet - and he's had them for eons - I figure it's just one of those things we're always going to be working on.

I read somewhere recently (wish I had book marked it) that in the Andalusian (it may be the same as in your Javas) that the female carries these red or gold feathers and passes them to her sons. I thought it was an interesting point as it seems the females never show these colors and then some of the males crop up with them seemingly out of the blue. My birds don't have pink or yellow feet so I'm not too sure if that is a dependable link to the problem. However, I have not kept notes specific to this issue. I do have birds that start out with slate legs and toes except for the extreme tips of the toes which are usually pink when they are still tiny. They grow out of this and develop fully slate toes as well. I could start keeping records to see if these pink toed birds grow off-colored feathers when they get older and see if there is a correlation.

I've wondered, too, if it would be a good practice to take this male when you spot those colors and cull him as well as his mother. I don't know though. What I have done is pull the offending feather and make note of it. If it grows back, I cull him but if it doesn't grow back then I figure he's ok to hang onto without this counting against him in the final running. All other things being equal, this may be the tie breaker... but then he may become the reserve cock instead of the lead.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Nope, Mottled Javas have not had much attention at all. Javas in general were mostly neglected and Mottleds seem to have had less work done on them than Blacks. Most of the photos I see of those people with Mottled Javas are all pretty splashy looking. Sometimes it seems like most people almost prefer the whitest of the Mottled Javas instead of ones that are black with more defined white tips.

These days, most of the newbies are mesmerized with the "Auburns" and "Silvers" that have been recently bred and there is a backyard breeding frenzy going on of those colors while the Blacks, Mottleds, and the few White Javas out there are getting brushed aside.

This is common in other breeds too. It never seems to help the breed overall.

Walt

More is the pity. The two "rare breed" organizations are no help in the matter either. The ALBC (now called whatever) has their critical list , which is worthless to the American poultry breeder. It used to have some level of value, but it is now just a bunch of bunk. They altered it around three years ago for silly, misguided, ideological reasons. They base their criteria on how they measure "worldwide" populations--as if worldwide populations mattered vis-a-vis American populations--and they now have in their commoner ranks some of the rarest breeds in America today.

Neither the SPPA nor the ALBC have a quality meter, so they're measuring random hatchery populations. The SPPA is quick to run after color as if it were important and not a superficial quality; moreover, they're too quick to criticize the APA from the outside without being a part of the solution on the inside, and then again, their criticisms are usually fairly baseless anyways.

What good is it if the ALBC turns people on to Javas if they don't also teach people to respect breeding. Considering all of the hype Javas have received because of ALBC promotion they should be much better birds now than they are, but the only actual chicken person I know of on the ALBC is Don Schrider, and when I mean chicken person, I mean putting your neck out there at a show so that there's actually public record of one's ability to breed anything that says people should listen to you.

John Henry Robinson, probably the most prominent 20th century standard-bred poultry author and whose discovery I owe completely to Bob Blosl, does the best job I know of of driving the point how that we are breeding shapes. That breed means shape. There is the Orpington shape, the Plymouth Rock shape, the Ancona/Leghorn shape, the Java shape, the Dorking shape. If we could figure out the hype button to turn people on to shape breeds might stand a chance of advancing. To ask someone what breed are they breeding should be synonymous with asking what shape are you breeding. Color is a gift and so very often a vice.

A page or so back I made a list of shapes and specific colors of shapes. As I mentioned, they are the shapes in the colors that I can personally say that I have seen in a correct enough shape to make them appropriate for the beginner to adopt without feeling that s/he is going to have to breed 100+ a year to make progress. As I mentioned, some others on here who frequent APA events might have a few to add, but I didn't want to list something I haven't seen with my own eyes. I've of course seen many other varieties and breeds, they're just not a good place for beginners to begin, in my opinion.

One of the major reasons for the birds on that list is that they offer a whole path. They are a possibility for hands-on discovery that goes deeper than book-based notions and pipe-dreams based on invented nostalgia. It's not to say that I don't love those books; I read them daily, but These are the breeds that people who actually breed are breeding. You can go to a major show and their birds are there, on display, for others to see, judge, and from which to learn what good breeding can do. It is so sad that the vast majority of beginners seem to follow these organizations down false paths that lead to what?

Auburn Javas? Silver Javas? White Javas? Cull them and move on. Top quality standard-bred Javas are rare, if they exist at all. One of the biggest flocks of Black Javas, which the ALBC featured in articles, etc. used to be just down the road from me. Sweet guy, but when his birds weren't selected for champion American after a few years of working with them and he couldn't envision making a profit on them because of the number he was raising, he got out of them and kept a couple of these Auburns to play with. I haven't even seen him for a couple of years; the last thing I knew he was waiting for a shipment of RC Nankins from an SPPA member. So, he went from a magazine cover to off the map in three years. His Black Javas were certainly worth working with, but now they're gone. I think it would be a very sad figure if we actually had the statistic for how frequently this or a similar scenario happens. 'Tis true, 'tis sad; 'tis sad, 'tis true.

Bob used to talk about "Many are called but few answer". It's gotten to the point that when people mention anything related to anything non-standard I just write them off. There's a guy around here all on the bandwagon to get Orloffs into the standard, but he goes to sloppy swaps, be breeds multiple varieties of nothing, far more than his infrastructure can support, he doesn't do a good job and his stock is disease prone.

I spent a huge amount of time at a major show this last season with a person who was ready to take a rare breed all the way. We spent a substantial amount of time going over birds, how to select for production, hands on assessment, etc... The last thing I saw of them they were offering chicks of their stock outcrossed to colored egg birds.

I'm starting to think that the "rare" label is a death knell both for the birds themselves and for the chicken-life of the breeders who go running after them. I would say that the "heritage" label isn't far behind. If the "heritage" label doesn't quickly up-grade in the breeders mind to "standard-bred" it's a pretty dead-end.

Hmmm...I'll try to post something happier later. Good morning everyone!