Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[bnjrob]

There does seem to be a relationship between some few red feathers in the hackle of a black male and the green sheen. One of the biggest reasons that Orps and some of the other black birds have dull black is that many people think it is OK to use black birds that come from the blue matings. It is not the same black that produces greenish cast to black.

As Joseph says......the shape makes the breed. Some think it is okay to cross breed shapes to get bigger, deeper etc birds. Once you go away from the same shape of the breed, you are going to have troubles.

Walt

I've seen the improvements in our birds and it is going to take a while to get better size and type to be seen in the majority of the flock. But it's possible to make improvements and I'm happy with each bunch that gets some things improved, although sometimes in small increments. I think people just assume that crossing breeds will fix a flaw faster than good breeding selection will.

 

[3riverschick]

I've been following this thread with great interest; it raises a question for me.

I am, by all accounts, a "newbie" and do not even own chickens at this point. I'm spending a lot of time reading about housing, feeding, breeding, culling....basically all points of husbandry. I've been encouraged to start with the 'best stock' I can afford but I'm beginning to question if I will ultimately be granted access to the best stock I can afford........perhaps I'll be forced to settle with the best I can get versus what I can afford.

I do, absolutely, understand the desire to protect all the work and effort put into a strain and that it would be disheartening to watch birds leave and know they'll never be what they could/would be if kept in your care. I also wonder if there is some middle ground available to people who are taking the cautionary tales against hatchery stock to heart, what is suggested to folks wanting to avoid hatchery birds (that by seemingly ALL accounts neither look or act like standard birds) but are essentially denied access to anything better?

I'm not wanting to stir the pot or get in the line of fire but I really am wondering where an advisable starting point is because if all I'll haveaccess is hatchery stock I can save myself a heck of a lot of trouble and flip a coin to decide on a color as that's really all that differentiates them.

Cheers!
M

There is no glass ceiling in this thread that I know of. When Bob
started this thread, one of his basic notions was to help preserve
these old top strains by showing folks how they could leave
hatchery stock and get better birds. And he did. He spent many hours
matching folk up with old vintage strains. Which needed folk to love
them and help preserve them. What are you interested in?
What breed and variety? Let's see if we can help you find a quality
starting place. It is what Bob taught us to do and something that
makes this thread so special.
So, what's on your mind?

Best,
Karen

 

[BGMatt]

YHF - you always give me a lot to think about. I understanding you wanting your birds in the right hands. Anytime you breed anything, its time consuming to weed out the poor fits. Only going with APA members increases the odds that your birds end up in the right hands. But....what about individuals like me? No poultry culture. I went to our local show in March. I seriously doubt there were 150 birds there. The only birds of quality were some white rocks in LF. Mostly 4H. Great for them, but its not going to inspire someone to show their birds. Or at least me. I may do it in the hopes of building the club up or not. I saw the same turnout the last time i went 10 years ago. Its going no where. Yes its sad. No I don't really think I can be part of the solution. I don't want to drive 3 hours to go to a show that is only slightly bigger. So I'm left trying to find mentors. Of which there are never many. We have nothing like the Ohio National. The closest large show is California. That is a huge time commitment. I think long and hard doing that with horses and often don't. Trust me, I have more into my riding than I'll ever have into poultry, no matter how much I might be obsessed. My horses pay for themselves which says a lot if you know anything about what kind of a money pit horses are.

Years ago, Jeannine Peters sent me a lovely trio of Reds. I didn't do anything with them, tho not for lack of trying. Did she make a mistake? I don't think so, because I learned from those experiences and am better prepared to actually work with the birds and try and improve them. I may spend a few years not going forward while I learn. As long as I don't go back I'm okay with that.

I would prefer to have chicks. I know there is a risk I wont be happy with my selections for breeders. But I get to learn from those selections. Sure I have a better start if a good breeder has preselected a trio or two for me, but I may not understand why they paired the birds the way they did.

What you describe about chick buyers is similar to what I go thru when I sell a horse. I spend a lot of time weeding out the tire kickers and wanna bes. Then I worry when I do sell them, because I know what they need and I worry if they really will get it or end up at the knackers. I've taken back horses that have been well and truly ruined and then put them down. I learned from that sale! Chickens are a bit different. There are seeds in all those chick buyers. Most will never make it. A few may fail and learn and come back for more.

Jennifer

Where are you located? I thought I had seen at one point that you were in WA State, there's quite a few shows up here, some are double events double events.

Wash Feather Fanciers Spring Show is always in Monroe in March

PNPA Spring Double Show is 3rd weekend in April (it was cancelled this year due to the panic over that VVIBD outbreak)

Washington Poultry Exhibitors is held in conjunction with Mother Earth News Fair in Puyallup May 31-June 1 this year

PNPA Fall show (double event) is 3rd weekend in October, last year was close to 1,000 birds

WPE is bringing back the waterfowl expo in early October

WFF has a show is in Nov (13-14 this year) and last year had 1100 birds

WPE is putting on a new show this year in early December.

And that's all without leaving the state of Washington! We aren't as spoiled as those east coast guys, but there's quite a few shows out here and the quality is very high at the actual club shows. Fairs are...well fairs, if you go to a fair and expect to see good quality birds, that's not going to happen anywhere in the US.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

gjensen, you're sounding more and more like Bob every day ;-)


Edited to add: I'm sounding more and more like an old curmudgeon.

 

[3riverschick]

gjensen, you're sounding more and more like Bob every day ;-)


Edited to add: I'm sounding more and more like an old curmudgeon.

You both sound like Bob! And I mean it!

 

[Yellow House Farm]

It doesn't help that the Java breed club is more about "having an online party" than it is about truly educating people on anything serious about breeding Javas. Even officers of the breed club are openly encouraging the "Auburn" Java to be admitted to the SOP and also the new "Silvers". I've flat out been told that the group is all about keeping EVERYONE happy at all costs - and I'm the minority when it comes to not jumping on the new color bandwagon and wanting an addition to the SOP. When I have expressed concerns over these new colors and their implications for Javas, I've been told that it shouldn't matter what other people are breeding and whether or not they submit a new color SOP to the APA - I should just keep my nose out of it. Our breed club is about catering to the people that want to show off pictures of their "handsome roo" - it is not about guiding people to do serious preservation breeding of Javas - because god forbid the breed club take a stand to become an authoritative resource for good breeding and long term viability of Javas and offend the vast majority of Java owners that just want to be backyard propagators after they saw the latest article about "Auburn" Javas in a chicken magazine.

The online Dorking people are the same. I could offer them support until my eyes crossed, but it would do no good. If I remember correctly, the Java club is one born of this sort of on-line community. I don't even look at the BYC Dorking Thread.

 

[bnjrob]

I've been following this thread with great interest; it raises a question for me.

I am, by all accounts, a "newbie" and do not even own chickens at this point. I'm spending a lot of time reading about housing, feeding, breeding, culling....basically all points of husbandry. I've been encouraged to start with the 'best stock' I can afford but I'm beginning to question if I will ultimately be granted access to the best stock I can afford........perhaps I'll be forced to settle with the best I can get versus what I can afford.

I do, absolutely, understand the desire to protect all the work and effort put into a strain and that it would be disheartening to watch birds leave and know they'll never be what they could/would be if kept in your care. I also wonder if there is some middle ground available to people who are taking the cautionary tales against hatchery stock to heart, what is suggested to folks wanting to avoid hatchery birds (that by seemingly ALL accounts neither look or act like standard birds) but are essentially denied access to anything better?

I'm not wanting to stir the pot or get in the line of fire but I really am wondering where an advisable starting point is because if all I'll haveaccess is hatchery stock I can save myself a heck of a lot of trouble and flip a coin to decide on a color as that's really all that differentiates them.

Cheers!
M

It took several years of searching and waiting to be able to put our hands on Javas. Are they perfect show specimens? No. Do they have good qualities? Yes. Are they meeting our needs currently? Yes. Are we seeing improvements in them? Yes. Will they meet our long term goals? Yes, as long as we continue to work with them. We wanted dual purpose homestead birds and being able to help preserve a breed from getting close to extinction fit into our long term goals.

Deciding where to start with getting stock can depend a lot on what your long term goals are. Many people are quite happy with hatchery stock - as evidenced by how often feed stores sell out of chicks every year. People that want to start exhibiting birds are probably not going to be happy unless they can get excellent adult specimens that were handpicked by a great breeder. Take a look at what your short and long term goals are for your birds and that will help you decide where to look for birds that you want and if you should get the best money can buy, or get what you can easily have access to from a breeder even if the birds aren't handpicked adults, or if you should just go get some chicks at the feed store.

 

[3riverschick]

Exactly!

Also, echoing a bit one of our conversations elsewhere, there's a lot to be said about focus. There may be several breeds and varieties that don't make into the 21st century. I used to think that was a tragedy, but more and more I'm realizing that's alright. There are so darn many of them, and there are only so many of us. In the last few years at the North Eastern Poultry Congress the Langshan people have been putting on one heck of a display. They're awesome--I mean awesome. The Blues and Whites are fine, but the blacks are outstanding. There's just this bank of Black Langshans that's awesome to behold. If we were to see more an more people rallying around healthy breeds and varieties with fellow chicken friends following suit, the results would be great. We might see few variations in LF, but what we would see would, in my opinion, be ever better. One good variety in a breed is an awesome thing. It would be awesome to see large classes of other breeds mirroring those Black Langshans. The Salmon Faverolles have also been quite interesting, nice sized displays with good birds. There aren't any Whites, but that's OK. The Rocks have good representation in White and Barred; White and SL Wyandottes.

On the other hand, the RIRs have been looking a little weak. Just as a thought: there is style and quality to these birds that represents years of effort. The need to be caught before they slip. This is so much more worthy a rallying point than Legbars or "Iowa Blues" or even random, faddish varieties of established breeds that have never really had importance. If people get into them and raise out 20 to 50 a year, they're going to do well and the community would be strengthened in a powerful way.

As to Walt's point about truly rare breeds, I've been there....I'm still there, but it's getting better. Both breeds are now showable if not champions, and other established breeders, and even some APA judges, are picking them up. It has taken several years though and comfortably over a thousand birds. Am I glad I did it? Yes. Would I do it again? Hmmm..... It's hard to say because they've become my breeds; they are the way my brain thinks chicken, but geesh, what a pain.

For folks on here wondering, and others might have additions, but when I think of dive in breeds that would fit a smaller operation, birds already in good condition who would benefit from more breeders, offering strong competition, I think of these:

Barred*, White*, Buff*, and Partridge** Rocks
Buff Orpingtons*
Black Australorps*
White*, SL*, and Columbian** Wyandottes
New Hampshires*
RC and SC RIR*
Light* and Dark** Brahmas
RC Anconas*
White*, Light* and Dark* Brown Leghorns
Black Minorcas*
Buff*, Black*, and Partridge** Cochins
Black Langshans*
Blue Andalusians** (if you're willing to color cull)
WFB Spanish** (everyone always talks about them as if they were made of porcelain, but there are actually some good one's out there)
Black Ameraucanas*
Dominiques*
Blk Sumatras*
Silver Spangled Hamburgs*
Speckled** and Light Sussex*
White** and Red Dorkings**
Buckeyes*
Salmon Faverolles*
WCB Polish*
Golden Campines**
White Chantecler(*)

~~There are two I would highlight, because I think population-wise, they're in a dangerous space: Speckled Sussex and Spangled Hamburgs. I'm really hoping that there's some strong rallying around these breeds before they descend to the "nothing but hatchery stock" status. I actually have the opportunity to begin with the Hamburgs, but I'm torn. They really need support, as an APA judge friend of mine recently put it, "Now there's a dying breed." There were none in competition at the Ohio National last season; that's a bit of a poultry tragedy right there. That Speckled Sussex be so low is another tragedy. They've been eclipsed by the Light Sussex imports, which though nice, don't have the US history that the Speckleds do, and unlike the Lights, they offer something unique to the poultry world.

For those wanting to do something big, and I mean big, Houdans could be fixed with White Dorkings. That would be awesome. Otherwise, I think they're pretty washed up.

This list is just meant as a food for thought list. I just went for a mental stroll up and down the aisles, and these are the birds I see regularly that would be good candidates to pick up. One (*) means I think it's an easier journey; (**) means I think in would be tougher but approachable.

There are some outstanding roll-models on this thread. If you're lurking and wondering, consider this list closely. These breeds could offer a lot of fun.

It would be neat to see more people with the Mediterraneans and Hamburgs. They're awesome chickens that, on occasion, get a bad rep by people who don't really know them.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Perhaps it would be good to return to a discussion of birds as opposed to a discussion of issues. Gayly forward and off we go!

 

[bnjrob]

Perhaps it would be good to return to a discussion of birds as opposed to a discussion of issues. Gayly forward and off we go!

LOL. Javas are nice birds and it sure would be great to have more people consider working with them!

Sorry, had to put in my plug for them for the newbies making choices.