Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Yellow House Farm]

Well, I don't know if this is happier, but it sort of goes along with the meta-message in the dialogue that Ron and I are having.

I'm thinking this might be the last year I offer chicks for sale publically. I was just listening to the answering machine as my husband is taking messages off of people wanting "heritage" chicks. I'm shipping chicks every week. It's time consuming, and the folks tend to talk to you as if they were talking to a Wal-mart employee, emailing repeatedly, and bla-bla-bla. More over, when I talk to them I can't help but get the sneaky suspicion that they're going nowhere. The words they say betray the fact that they still have a lot to learn to even get off the ground, and they're not going to shows, which means by the time they've figured a few things out, they will have bred the birds they receive into the ground and will have to start over anyways.

I think more and more that only want to sell to confirmed APA members. I'm not selling to make money; I'm selling for the good of the breed, but if one isn't an active member of the APA, hanging around with and learning from experienced APA members, one will not have the knowledge needed to bring these birds forward. Are there exceptions to this? Sure. Are they many? I do not believe so.

When I brought White Dorkings to the Ohio National this last fall for my first time taking them to big show, they caused quite a stir--not so much for where they are, but for where they're going. Two senior judges asked me for stock. Later last season, after selecting my breeders, I gave them the very best birds I had to offer, and I mean gave. Why? Because who cares about the money; it's about the birds. I want these birds to be in the hands of folks that know what they're doing, whose hands speak to them when a pullet is sat in their palm. Of all the birds I've shipped, these, along with a couple of shipments that have gone to established APA breeders are only birds for which I have true hope, and it is scenarios such as this that are necessary to ensure the future of these birds.

I don't mean this to be offensive, it's just part of sharing a thought process. It's a lot of work to maintain this operation, but it truly is a labor of love, and I'm comfortably beyond the seven year itch ;-), but at this point I really think I only want to do the extra work of shipment to destinations where I know it's worth it for the future of the stock.

 

[bnjrob]

Splash is white with a smattering of black or blue feathers (not even whole feathers) scattered over the body in random fashion. Mottled is black with v-shaped white feather tips that are not random. I think that hatcheries help to confuse the issue when they say things like "the Andalusian doesn't breed true, but rather if you breed two blues together, you will get 50% blues, 25% black and 25% mottled or splashed." I've also heard the adjective "splashed" applied to Anconas. It drives me crazy. They are propagating their ignorance onto an unsuspecting public who expects them to know what they're talking about.

I read somewhere recently (wish I had book marked it) that in the Andalusian (it may be the same as in your Javas) that the female carries these red or gold feathers and passes them to her sons. I thought it was an interesting point as it seems the females never show these colors and then some of the males crop up with them seemingly out of the blue. My birds don't have pink or yellow feet so I'm not too sure if that is a dependable link to the problem. However, I have not kept notes specific to this issue. I do have birds that start out with slate legs and toes except for the extreme tips of the toes which are usually pink when they are still tiny. They grow out of this and develop fully slate toes as well. I could start keeping records to see if these pink toed birds grow off-colored feathers when they get older and see if there is a correlation.

I've wondered, too, if it would be a good practice to take this male when you spot those colors and cull him as well as his mother. I don't know though. What I have done is pull the offending feather and make note of it. If it grows back, I cull him but if it doesn't grow back then I figure he's ok to hang onto without this counting against him in the final running. All other things being equal, this .

We're only using these non-standard colored males, which are quite handsome looking, for our color project breeding. Any birds showing off- color feathers aren't being used for normal breeding purposes. Although since we don't do single mating or trap nesting currently, I don't have a clue which hen may be passing it along silently, fortunately it only rarely shows up when two standard colored birds are mated compared to the project birds with the non-standard colored father.

There is some of that old literature out there discussing black birds becoming matte black instead of green sheened if you don't periodically breed back these birds with the inappropriate red feathering. I figure if we start losing some of the green sheen in them, then I'll try out the old advice and see what happens by throwing one of these birds with red feathering back into the mix.

Keeping all these color project and standard colored birds separate is why we are constantly under construction for more chicken housing.

 

[fowlman01]

We're only using these non-standard colored males, which are quite handsome looking, for our color project breeding. Any birds showing off- color feathers aren't being used for normal breeding purposes. Although since we don't do single mating or trap nesting currently, I don't have a clue which hen may be passing it along silently, fortunately it only rarely shows up when two standard colored birds are mated compared to the project birds with the non-standard colored father.

There is some of that old literature out there discussing black birds becoming matte black instead of green sheened if you don't periodically breed back these birds with the inappropriate red feathering. I figure if we start losing some of the green sheen in them, then I'll try out the old advice and see what happens by throwing one of these birds with red feathering back into the mix.

Keeping all these color project and standard colored birds separate is why we are constantly under construction for more chicken housing.

There does seem to be a relationship between some few red feathers in the hackle of a black male and the green sheen. One of the biggest reasons that Orps and some of the other black birds have dull black is that many people think it is OK to use black birds that come from the blue matings. It is not the same black that produces greenish cast to black.

As Joseph says......the shape makes the breed. Some think it is okay to cross breed shapes to get bigger, deeper etc birds. Once you go away from the same shape of the breed, you are going to have troubles.

Walt

 

[pigsflyacres]

YHF - you always give me a lot to think about. I understanding you wanting your birds in the right hands. Anytime you breed anything, its time consuming to weed out the poor fits. Only going with APA members increases the odds that your birds end up in the right hands. But....what about individuals like me? No poultry culture. I went to our local show in March. I seriously doubt there were 150 birds there. The only birds of quality were some white rocks in LF. Mostly 4H. Great for them, but its not going to inspire someone to show their birds. Or at least me. I may do it in the hopes of building the club up or not. I saw the same turnout the last time i went 10 years ago. Its going no where. Yes its sad. No I don't really think I can be part of the solution. I don't want to drive 3 hours to go to a show that is only slightly bigger. So I'm left trying to find mentors. Of which there are never many. We have nothing like the Ohio National. The closest large show is California. That is a huge time commitment. I think long and hard doing that with horses and often don't. Trust me, I have more into my riding than I'll ever have into poultry, no matter how much I might be obsessed. My horses pay for themselves which says a lot if you know anything about what kind of a money pit horses are.

Years ago, Jeannine Peters sent me a lovely trio of Reds. I didn't do anything with them, tho not for lack of trying. Did she make a mistake? I don't think so, because I learned from those experiences and am better prepared to actually work with the birds and try and improve them. I may spend a few years not going forward while I learn. As long as I don't go back I'm okay with that.

I would prefer to have chicks. I know there is a risk I wont be happy with my selections for breeders. But I get to learn from those selections. Sure I have a better start if a good breeder has preselected a trio or two for me, but I may not understand why they paired the birds the way they did.

What you describe about chick buyers is similar to what I go thru when I sell a horse. I spend a lot of time weeding out the tire kickers and wanna bes. Then I worry when I do sell them, because I know what they need and I worry if they really will get it or end up at the knackers. I've taken back horses that have been well and truly ruined and then put them down. I learned from that sale! Chickens are a bit different. There are seeds in all those chick buyers. Most will never make it. A few may fail and learn and come back for more.

Jennifer

 

[gjensen]

More is the pity. The two "rare breed" organizations are no help in the matter either. The ALBC (now called whatever) has their critical list , which is worthless to the American poultry breeder. It used to have some level of value, but it is now just a bunch of bunk. They altered it around three years ago for silly, misguided, ideological reasons. They base their criteria on how they measure "worldwide" populations--as if worldwide populations mattered vis-a-vis American populations--and they now have in their commoner ranks some of the rarest breeds in America today.

Neither the SPPA nor the ALBC have a quality meter, so they're measuring random hatchery populations. The SPPA is quick to run after color as if it were important and not a superficial quality; moreover, they're too quick to criticize the APA from the outside without being a part of the solution on the inside, and then again, their criticisms are usually fairly baseless anyways.

What good is it if the ALBC turns people on to Javas if they don't also teach people to respect breeding. Considering all of the hype Javas have received because of ALBC promotion they should be much better birds now than they are, but the only actual chicken person I know of on the ALBC is Don Schrider, and when I mean chicken person, I mean putting your neck out there at a show so that there's actually public record of one's ability to breed anything that says people should listen to you.

John Henry Robinson, probably the most prominent 20th century standard-bred poultry author and whose discovery I owe completely to Bob Blosl, does the best job I know of of driving the point how that we are breeding shapes. That breed means shape. There is the Orpington shape, the Plymouth Rock shape, the Ancona/Leghorn shape, the Java shape, the Dorking shape. If we could figure out the hype button to turn people on to shape breeds might stand a chance of advancing. To ask someone what breed are they breeding should be synonymous with asking what shape are you breeding. Color is a gift and so very often a vice.

A page or so back I made a list of shapes and specific colors of shapes. As I mentioned, they are the shapes in the colors that I can personally say that I have seen in a correct enough shape to make them appropriate for the beginner to adopt without feeling that s/he is going to have to breed 100+ a year to make progress. As I mentioned, some others on here who frequent APA events might have a few to add, but I didn't want to list something I haven't seen with my own eyes. I've of course seen many other varieties and breeds, they're just not a good place for beginners to begin, in my opinion.

One of the major reasons for the birds on that list is that they offer a whole path. They are a possibility for hands-on discovery that goes deeper than book-based notions and pipe-dreams based on invented nostalgia. It's not to say that I don't love those books; I read them daily, but These are the breeds that people who actually breed are breeding. You can go to a major show and their birds are there, on display, for others to see, judge, and from which to learn what good breeding can do. It is so sad that the vast majority of beginners seem to follow these organizations down false paths that lead to what?

Auburn Javas? Silver Javas? White Javas? Cull them and move on. Top quality standard-bred Javas are rare, if they exist at all. One of the biggest flocks of Black Javas, which the ALBC featured in articles, etc. used to be just down the road from me. Sweet guy, but when his birds weren't selected for champion American after a few years of working with them and he couldn't envision making a profit on them because of the number he was raising, he got out of them and kept a couple of these Auburns to play with. I haven't even seen him for a couple of years; the last thing I knew he was waiting for a shipment of RC Nankins from an SPPA member. So, he went from a magazine cover to off the map in three years. His Black Javas were certainly worth working with, but now they're gone. I think it would be a very sad figure if we actually had the statistic for how frequently this or a similar scenario happens. 'Tis true, 'tis sad; 'tis sad, 'tis true.

Bob used to talk about "Many are called but few answer". It's gotten to the point that when people mention anything related to anything non-standard I just write them off. There's a guy around here all on the bandwagon to get Orloffs into the standard, but he goes to sloppy swaps, be breeds multiple varieties of nothing, far more than his infrastructure can support, he doesn't do a good job and his stock is disease prone.

I spent a huge amount of time at a major show this last season with a person who was ready to take a rare breed all the way. We spent a substantial amount of time going over birds, how to select for production, hands on assessment, etc... The last thing I saw of them they were offering chicks of their stock outcrossed to colored egg birds.

I'm starting to think that the "rare" label is a death knell both for the birds themselves and for the chicken-life of the breeders who go running after them. I would say that the "heritage" label isn't far behind. If the "heritage" label doesn't quickly up-grade in the breeders mind to "standard-bred" it's a pretty dead-end.

Hmmm...I'll try to post something happier later. Good morning everyone!

Joseph this is one of your better posts. I appreciate the ability to speak "frankly".

The best thing that has come out of the ALBC (concerning chickens) is the Buckeye project. We know why that went well. Their focus is too broad to especially benefit poultry.

I prefer the SPPA. I think that most appreciate and respect the APA. What little is done is done by a few. A few can only do so much. What they need is some fresh enthusiasm. I think that their biggest hang up is a lack of support from the membership. This poultry craze is largely on the internet, and people are satisfied with what they receive on the internet.
I do like that they are willing to support non standardized varieties. There are on non standard varieties that have been here a long time that are valuable to those that are interested in them.

I do not like either's list. There is a bit of bias, and a whole lot of lack of information. Concerning what is in other countries, to me, is irrelevant. It seams that we should be most concerned with what we have here. Importing and exporting is exceedingly difficult. I suspect that it will grow to be even more difficult. We should forget what others have, and worry about what we have.

I think that those that like to experiment and create is a natural part of this. I also think that people wanting the new, is part of this. It has increased with every increase in keeping poultry. The difference now is none of us actually know how to breed good birds.
Many will never be able to. They like the idea of it, but that is about it. It sounds good, but they can play pretend on the internet.

Then there are those that are like me. I enjoy this and I am trying to pick it up. A lack of real time experience is what holds me back. Whether I will be any good at it, will tell in time. I suspect that I will, but the length of time that it will be realized in is long.

Then there are those that have been doing this a long time, and still will never be. They have good birds, because they bought good birds.

The amount of experienced, talented, and committed breeders is very short. Any real difference will be made by growing that list. The bigger that list, the larger variety of breeds and varieties that will stick around a little longer in good shape.

One thing about Bob that I appreciate more now than then, was that he was excellent at cultivating the interest and establishing the basics. I am sure that there are some that he got started that is working at it now, and will continue. Albeit few.

Concerning type, I do not get the inability to gain a sense of what a breed's type is. I see over and again mediocre example touted as good examples. There are many breeds that do not have a single good bird in the whole lot, and are considered in reasonably good shape. I will pick on a breed of mine. I have not seen a single New Hampshire that makes my heart go pitter patter. Not a single one. But we say that they are in good shape.
A breed that is in good shape is the Leghorns. Somehow they have maintained a consistency of type over a hundred years. They are better than what they were, but they are faithful to what they were. That is a breed that has birds with good type.

I agree. If we need to learn anything it is to recognize good type, and get there. It is harder with the more difficult colors because you have to be mindful of color along the way.

Maybe that you can help by turning this thread back to what it was. Bring it back to the basics. Encouraging the new people to start slow and small. Not discouraging anyone from their breed of choice, less explaining some possible pitfalls. The bias that we tend to have (all of us) is limiting.

They will expand if they chose to and if they are able. A few will get the bug, and move forward. Back to the basics, and learning how to breed good typed birds. Especially the younger ones, because the baby boom generation will not be here forever. The younger ones have plenty of time to get pretty darned good at it.

 

[southernmomma]

I've been following this thread with great interest; it raises a question for me.

I am, by all accounts, a "newbie" and do not even own chickens at this point. I'm spending a lot of time reading about housing, feeding, breeding, culling....basically all points of husbandry. I've been encouraged to start with the 'best stock' I can afford but I'm beginning to question if I will ultimately be granted access to the best stock I can afford........perhaps I'll be forced to settle with the best I can get versus what I can afford.

I do, absolutely, understand the desire to protect all the work and effort put into a strain and that it would be disheartening to watch birds leave and know they'll never be what they could/would be if kept in your care. I also wonder if there is some middle ground available to people who are taking the cautionary tales against hatchery stock to heart, what is suggested to folks wanting to avoid hatchery birds (that by seemingly ALL accounts neither look or act like standard birds) but are essentially denied access to anything better?

I'm not wanting to stir the pot or get in the line of fire but I really am wondering where an advisable starting point is because if all I'll haveaccess is hatchery stock I can save myself a heck of a lot of trouble and flip a coin to decide on a color as that's really all that differentiates them.

Cheers!
M

 

[3riverschick]

I don't mean this to be offensive, it's just part of sharing a thought process. It's a lot of work to maintain this operation, but it truly is a labor of love, and I'm comfortably beyond the seven year itch ;-), but at this point I really think I only want to do the extra work of shipment to destinations where I know it's worth it for the future of the stock.

Hi ,
I feel the same way about my Light Sussex. What good does it do to let this pure English strain go and then have folk cross them with Aussie stock?

This is only my second season with them. I did get an email from Walt Boese who has seen the videos of the bird and he thinks they look real good. So that's a happy thing.

This will be the 1st season starting the 2 families. One with the Boese/ outcross and one pure Boese. I am excited about the outcross.

I think there is an even better body waiting to be hatched. I say it's an outcross but there is a way to do an outcross where it is an outcross by lineage but really a genotypic linebreeding and I am hoping that is what I have here. And the inbreeding on the Boese strain is exciting because the boys are already so prepotent for a nice body type, I think it will be even more pronounced this season as we triple up on 3x APA Grand Champion "Senior" who is the fountainhead for that body type. Unfortunately, we are hatching late this year and the birds won't be old enough for the Ohio National. But will for the Spring shows.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[bnjrob]

More is the pity. The two "rare breed" organizations are no help in the matter either. The ALBC (now called whatever) has their critical list , which is worthless to the American poultry breeder. It used to have some level of value, but it is now just a bunch of bunk. They altered it around three years ago for silly, misguided, ideological reasons. They base their criteria on how they measure "worldwide" populations--as if worldwide populations mattered vis-a-vis American populations--and they now have in their commoner ranks some of the rarest breeds in America today.

Neither the SPPA nor the ALBC have a quality meter, so they're measuring random hatchery populations. The SPPA is quick to run after color as if it were important and not a superficial quality; moreover, they're too quick to criticize the APA from the outside without being a part of the solution on the inside, and then again, their criticisms are usually fairly baseless anyways.

What good is it if the ALBC turns people on to Javas if they don't also teach people to respect breeding. Considering all of the hype Javas have received because of ALBC promotion they should be much better birds now than they are, but the only actual chicken person I know of on the ALBC is Don Schrider, and when I mean chicken person, I mean putting your neck out there at a show so that there's actually public record of one's ability to breed anything that says people should listen to you.

John Henry Robinson, probably the most prominent 20th century standard-bred poultry author and whose discovery I owe completely to Bob Blosl, does the best job I know of of driving the point how that we are breeding shapes. That breed means shape. There is the Orpington shape, the Plymouth Rock shape, the Ancona/Leghorn shape, the Java shape, the Dorking shape. If we could figure out the hype button to turn people on to shape breeds might stand a chance of advancing. To ask someone what breed are they breeding should be synonymous with asking what shape are you breeding. Color is a gift and so very often a vice.

A page or so back I made a list of shapes and specific colors of shapes. As I mentioned, they are the shapes in the colors that I can personally say that I have seen in a correct enough shape to make them appropriate for the beginner to adopt without feeling that s/he is going to have to breed 100+ a year to make progress. As I mentioned, some others on here who frequent APA events might have a few to add, but I didn't want to list something I haven't seen with my own eyes. I've of course seen many other varieties and breeds, they're just not a good place for beginners to begin, in my opinion.

One of the major reasons for the birds on that list is that they offer a whole path. They are a possibility for hands-on discovery that goes deeper than book-based notions and pipe-dreams based on invented nostalgia. It's not to say that I don't love those books; I read them daily, but These are the breeds that people who actually breed are breeding. You can go to a major show and their birds are there, on display, for others to see, judge, and from which to learn what good breeding can do. It is so sad that the vast majority of beginners seem to follow these organizations down false paths that lead to what?

Auburn Javas? Silver Javas? White Javas? Cull them and move on. Top quality standard-bred Javas are rare, if they exist at all. One of the biggest flocks of Black Javas, which the ALBC featured in articles, etc. used to be just down the road from me. Sweet guy, but when his birds weren't selected for champion American after a few years of working with them and he couldn't envision making a profit on them because of the number he was raising, he got out of them and kept a couple of these Auburns to play with. I haven't even seen him for a couple of years; the last thing I knew he was waiting for a shipment of RC Nankins from an SPPA member. So, he went from a magazine cover to off the map in three years. His Black Javas were certainly worth working with, but now they're gone. I think it would be a very sad figure if we actually had the statistic for how frequently this or a similar scenario happens. 'Tis true, 'tis sad; 'tis sad, 'tis true.

Bob used to talk about "Many are called but few answer". It's gotten to the point that when people mention anything related to anything non-standard I just write them off. There's a guy around here all on the bandwagon to get Orloffs into the standard, but he goes to sloppy swaps, be breeds multiple varieties of nothing, far more than his infrastructure can support, he doesn't do a good job and his stock is disease prone.

I spent a huge amount of time at a major show this last season with a person who was ready to take a rare breed all the way. We spent a substantial amount of time going over birds, how to select for production, hands on assessment, etc... The last thing I saw of them they were offering chicks of their stock outcrossed to colored egg birds.

I'm starting to think that the "rare" label is a death knell both for the birds themselves and for the chicken-life of the breeders who go running after them. I would say that the "heritage" label isn't far behind. If the "heritage" label doesn't quickly up-grade in the breeders mind to "standard-bred" it's a pretty dead-end.

Hmmm...I'll try to post something happier later. Good morning everyone!

It doesn't help that the Java breed club is more about "having an online party" than it is about truly educating people on anything serious about breeding Javas. Even officers of the breed club are openly encouraging the "Auburn" Java to be admitted to the SOP and also the new "Silvers". I've flat out been told that the group is all about keeping EVERYONE happy at all costs - and I'm the minority when it comes to not jumping on the new color bandwagon and wanting an addition to the SOP. When I have expressed concerns over these new colors and their implications for Javas, I've been told that it shouldn't matter what other people are breeding and whether or not they submit a new color SOP to the APA - I should just keep my nose out of it. Our breed club is about catering to the people that want to show off pictures of their "handsome roo" - it is not about guiding people to do serious preservation breeding of Javas - because god forbid the breed club take a stand to become an authoritative resource for good breeding and long term viability of Javas and offend the vast majority of Java owners that just want to be backyard propagators after they saw the latest article about "Auburn" Javas in a chicken magazine.

 

[gjensen]

Well, I don't know if this is happier, but it sort of goes along with the meta-message in the dialogue that Ron and I are having.

I'm thinking this might be the last year I offer chicks for sale publically. I was just listening to the answering machine as my husband is taking messages off of people wanting "heritage" chicks. I'm shipping chicks every week. It's time consuming, and the folks tend to talk to you as if they were talking to a Wal-mart employee, emailing repeatedly, and bla-bla-bla. More over, when I talk to them I can't help but get the sneaky suspicion that they're going nowhere. The words they say betray the fact that they still have a lot to learn to even get off the ground, and they're not going to shows, which means by the time they've figured a few things out, they will have bred the birds they receive into the ground and will have to start over anyways.

I think more and more that only want to sell to confirmed APA members. I'm not selling to make money; I'm selling for the good of the breed, but if one isn't an active member of the APA, hanging around with and learning from experienced APA members, one will not have the knowledge needed to bring these birds forward. Are there exceptions to this? Sure. Are they many? I do not believe so.

When I brought White Dorkings to the Ohio National this last fall for my first time taking them to big show, they caused quite a stir--not so much for where they are, but for where they're going. Two senior judges asked me for stock. Later last season, after selecting my breeders, I gave them the very best birds I had to offer, and I mean gave. Why? Because who cares about the money; it's about the birds. I want these birds to be in the hands of folks that know what they're doing, whose hands speak to them when a pullet is sat in their palm. Of all the birds I've shipped, these, along with a couple of shipments that have gone to established APA breeders are only birds for which I have true hope, and it is scenarios such as this that are necessary to ensure the future of these birds.

I don't mean this to be offensive, it's just part of sharing a thought process. It's a lot of work to maintain this operation, but it truly is a labor of love, and I'm comfortably beyond the seven year itch ;-), but at this point I really think I only want to do the extra work of shipment to destinations where I know it's worth it for the future of the stock.

They are belonging of yours. Do as you see fit.

Just keep in mind, someone could have refused me a start as well. I had nothing that would have spoke of my willingness to figure it out. Everyone was a newbie at some point. We all sound silly when we start. We get our heads full of all kinds of silly notions. It is those that stick it out that get it.

There is some wisdom in being mindful of who the birds are shared with though. Good birds have a value that goes beyond the price. A lot of work has went into them. You have put a lot of work into them. Kind of a throwing your pearls to the swine kind of thing.

And I get it. Despite my prior comments, I can relate with the desire to be selective. I just believe it is a personal choice, and I do not think any approach is what hurts the birds. Except the birds that go to people that have no business keeping animals at all.

I have considered having a picture of their set up sent to me. That is revealing It does not have to be fancy or pretty. It has to be functional, and make some kind of sense though. If they are set up and ready to go, chances are they will at least take good care of them.

I can see even wanting to keep them to myself less a partner or two. No one wants them until they someone got them to a point where they were pretty good.

 

[gjensen]

I've been following this thread with great interest; it raises a question for me.

I am, by all accounts, a "newbie" and do not even own chickens at this point. I'm spending a lot of time reading about housing, feeding, breeding, culling....basically all points of husbandry. I've been encouraged to start with the 'best stock' I can afford but I'm beginning to question if I will ultimately be granted access to the best stock I can afford........perhaps I'll be forced to settle with the best I can get versus what I can afford.

I do, absolutely, understand the desire to protect all the work and effort put into a strain and that it would be disheartening to watch birds leave and know they'll never be what they could/would be if kept in your care. I also wonder if there is some middle ground available to people who are taking the cautionary tales against hatchery stock to heart, what is suggested to folks wanting to avoid hatchery birds (that by seemingly ALL accounts neither look or act like standard birds) but are essentially denied access to anything better?

I'm not wanting to stir the pot or get in the line of fire but I really am wondering where an advisable starting point is because if all I'll haveaccess is hatchery stock I can save myself a heck of a lot of trouble and flip a coin to decide on a color as that's really all that differentiates them.

Cheers!
M

You will get what you want. You strike me as someone that when you commit, you will do what it takes.

I searched the entire country for what I wanted. if you want it, and it is there, you will get it.