Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[MagicChicken]

Speaking of breeding for shape, this bird's profile jumped out at me when I was reviewing this evening's Black Java chick video. Hadn't paid much attention to her until I saw this photo. Now I'm going to have to figure out who she is. The birds are all wing-tagged but that doesn't help identify them from photos. She is probably14-16 weeks old. She is from one of the first ever complementary pairs I selected. I've been looking for a straight backline on a block-shaped body. Maybe there is hope:



Here she is again from a slightly different angle:



Now I am going to sign off before I start picking her apart, because there is a long way to go...

Sarah

 

[Vamvakas]

I really think you need to wait atleast 6 months to see the shape more better. Anything could happen before that.. Had a front runner Black Australorp rooster for the longest time before 6 months and said he would be a best roo till I noticed his tail wasn't full and did not like his feet/shanks color at all. He had a nice comb and body but the 2nd other rooster had better feet/tail/physique.

 

[3riverschick]

This is for the genetics geeks among us.

The effect of selection in sublines and crossing on genetic response and inbreeding.

C Smith and M Quinton J ANIM SCI 1993, 71:2631-2638.

http://www.journalofanimalscience.org/content/71/10/2631.full.pdf

When I read papers like this it makes my head hurt, smile. Usually, I read the Abstract then the concluding Discussion and the Afterword (Implications) if there is one. Then ( if I think I understand what they are saying ), I go back to look at the charts, tables, and pictures. Aside from the pictures, that's usually where I get lost and my head starts to hurt, smile. Basically, the whole paper is summed up in the section: "Implications"

"Selection in sublines and crossing yields less genetic response at the same level of inbreeding
than does selection in a single whole line using all the test facilities. Even the best subline is also
usually inferior to the whole line. It is concluded that selection response is greatest when all the
test facilities and selection are concentrated in a single selection line."

I thought that was interesting to share since we talk a lot about founding flocks, building
strains, and selecting within genetic pools ( of whatever size) for excellence.
Best,
Karen

 

[brahmabreeder]

Ok, I thought of a question now that I'm finally able to get some fertile eggs going in my incubator. Do any of you guys know if hatching chicks in the winter vs. the spring effects the overall quality of the bird in the long run? I just wanted to know because in winter they get less sun and can't get out and forage nearly as well in the spring. Leading to less nutritional eggs. Does this affect the chicks in the long run( like which would end up performing better overall )?

 

[Yellow House Farm]

This is a male that I started with. It is a crude photo, and a generally poor bird. Especially concerning color. If it was back and white, you fixed the tail, and comb . . . . then you see only the pride. They have a way about them.

Actually, immediately I saw his breast line; it's one of the places my eye is trained to. I'm kind of amazed you've got that much bird. She is broad across the shoulders, and to the extent that I can actually see anything, she seems deep in the abdomen. Just hatch as many of those puppies as you can. Remember you can cull at 12 weeks for weight; so you can hatch heavy knowing you can cull down when they start demanding more space and range.

Walt, are you used to seeing Catalans with that much depth of breast? We don't have them here.

Speaking of breeding for shape, this bird's profile jumped out at me when I was reviewing this evening's Black Java chick video. Hadn't paid much attention to her until I saw this photo. Now I'm going to have to figure out who she is. The birds are all wing-tagged but that doesn't help identify them from photos. She is probably14-16 weeks old. She is from one of the first ever complementary pairs I selected. I've been looking for a straight backline on a block-shaped body. Maybe there is hope:



Here she is again from a slightly different angle:



Now I am going to sign off before I start picking her apart, because there is a long way to go...

Sarah

As Vamvakas pointed out, you got be careful with early assessment. I have some pretty nice looking 8 week old Dorkings, but 'tis many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip. For example, her breast is not filled out yet. However, I'm seeing where your hopes might come in on her back line. Cross those fingers.

Ok, I thought of a question now that I'm finally able to get some fertile eggs going in my incubator. Do any of you guys know if hatching chicks in the winter vs. the spring effects the overall quality of the bird in the long run? I just wanted to know because in winter they get less sun and can't get out and forage nearly as well in the spring. Leading to less nutritional eggs. Does this affect the chicks in the long run( like which would end up performing better overall )?

Much depends. I have to hatch later because my birds mature too quickly and their past peak before the showing season. I often see some beautiful birds that were hatched early. I think a lot depends on your infrastructure and husbandry practices. Brahmas are often hatched early in order to give them time to fill out. Keep their feet out of the mud.

 

[RedRidge]

I've been following this thread with great interest; it raises a question for me.

I am, by all accounts, a "newbie" and do not even own chickens at this point.  I'm spending a lot of time reading about housing, feeding, breeding, culling....basically all points of husbandry.  I've been encouraged to start with the 'best stock' I can afford but I'm beginning to question if I will ultimately be granted access to the best stock I can afford........perhaps I'll be forced to settle with the best I can get versus what I can afford.

I do, absolutely, understand the desire to protect all the work and effort put into a strain and that it would be disheartening to watch birds leave and know they'll never be what they could/would be if kept in your care.  I also wonder if there is some middle ground available to people who are taking the cautionary tales against hatchery stock to heart, what is suggested to folks wanting to avoid hatchery birds (that by seemingly ALL accounts neither look or act like standard birds) but are essentially denied access to anything better?

I'm not wanting to stir the pot or get in the line of fire but I really am wondering where an advisable starting point is because if all I'll haveaccess is hatchery stock I can save myself a heck of a lot of trouble and flip a coin to decide on a color as that's really all that differentiates them.

Cheers!
M

Let me just point out that the Internet can be your friend. My mentor is 4 States away but we spend a lot of time on the phone and I send him a LOT of pictures. He had been extremely supportive and very generous with his time.

 

[gjensen]

Let me just point out that the Internet can be your friend. My mentor is 4 States away but we spend a lot of time on the phone and I send him a LOT of pictures. He had been extremely supportive and very generous with his time.

I would have never found any "real" Catalanas, had it not been for the internet.

But . . . .looking back, if had been frequenting NC shows I would have come across Romig before. I would have found them sooner. Romig is from Pa, but has judged in NC . The internet is certainly useful, but the advice to attend shows is good advice. It is also a good way to see the birds in person, and see what is in the area. Might be something available that you want, and might not be.
I say that because I wish that I had heeded that advice. I kept saying that I would wait until I had something worth showing. I still do not have that, but I could have made a few short trips along the way. Now my health is a limiting factor, and I am scheming how I would pull it off.

It is something I wish that I had done.

 

[NYREDS]

 I would have never found any "real" Catalanas, had it not been for the internet.

 But . . . .looking back, if had been frequenting NC shows I would have come across Romig before. I would have found them sooner. Romig is from Pa, but has judged in NC . The internet is certainly useful, but the advice to attend shows is good advice. It is also a good way to see the birds in person, and see what is in the area. Might be something available that you want, and might not be.
 I say that because I wish that I had heeded that advice. I kept saying that I would wait until I had something worth showing. I still do not have that, but I could have made a few short trips along the way. Now my health is a limiting factor, and I am scheming how I would pull it off.

 It is something I wish that I had done.

I didn't know Roland had Catalanas. I've judged with him & I guess it never came up in conversation. They are hard to find I go years w/o seeing any & many years w/o seeing any good ones.

 

[gjensen]

Actually, immediately I saw his breast line; it's one of the places my eye is trained to. I'm kind of amazed you've got that much bird. She is broad across the shoulders, and to the extent that I can actually see anything, she seems deep in the abdomen. Just hatch as many of those puppies as you can. Remember you can cull at 12 weeks for weight; so you can hatch heavy knowing you can cull down when they start demanding more space and range.

Walt, are you used to seeing Catalans with that much depth of breast? We don't have them here.

As Vamvakas pointed out, you got be careful with early assessment. I have some pretty nice looking 8 week old Dorkings, but 'tis many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip. For example, her breast is not filled out yet. However, I'm seeing where your hopes might come in on her back line. Cross those fingers.

Much depends. I have to hatch later because my birds mature too quickly and their past peak before the showing season. I often see some beautiful birds that were hatched early. I think a lot depends on your infrastructure and husbandry practices. Brahmas are often hatched early in order to give them time to fill out. Keep their feet out of the mud.

Joseph, have you seen any at all?

Walt is familiar with Bridgette's birds, and as far as I know, they are all that has potential. There are some things that I like about her birds. She has done well by them. She shared a trio with me, and I have a lot of hope that one of the pullets can help me. Her flock is producing better individuals than mine has.

I like that bird. He is not a bird you get excited about sharing the photo, but the picture points to the picture I have in my head.

Speaking frankly, we do not know what a good Catalana is here. I do not like the picture in the Standard, but I like the written section. The birds are a little short in height in the picture. Catalanas have some legs up under them, and stand proud. They do not have a low station. I have compared the language in the written section to others in the class to interpret what is written. Along with getting a feel for what they are like around the world, I have where I think they should be in my head.

Every where you read, they speak of how common they are in Latin America and Spain. I do not get that impression. I get the impression that they were.

The downside is that it has been difficult to decide for myself what a picture of correctness looked like. The upside is there is a little more "freedom". I am not bound by prevailing perceptions, or misconceptions.

The challenge of actually putting together a good bird is appealing.

 

[gjensen]

I didn't know Roland had Catalanas. I've judged with him & I guess it never came up in conversation. They are hard to find I go years w/o seeing any & many years w/o seeing any good ones.

He does not have them anymore. My impression was that a friend of his had them, and he helped me get mine from him. This person was getting out of them. He was helping that friend with his flock. I guess they had geese together.

Mr. Romig's birds is what started the flock that Ideal has. The Catalanas being shown in California originally came from Ideal. They (Ideal) has done something with them since then. Glenn also told me that Ideal got some birds from him later.

As far as I know, the only "real" Catalanas out there are from Mr. Romig's flock. I missed this lead because the rumor was that he had gotten out of them. I think that he did, but when Superior fell through, he got them back. Then his friend is who actually had possession of them. I came along at the right time.

Apparently Mr. Romig's birds came from Peru.

Most of the "Catalanas" that had been around were black/buff Minorca cross remakes. A man in Arkansas did that, and Curtis Oaks remade them. They both got out of them. Mr. Oakes (sp?) told me that it was due to a lack of interest in the breed.

Glenn had told me that his birds originally came from Mr. Russell. I think that they have been crossed with commercial Minorca.

As far as I know the birds from Romig, is really all that we have now. That and what is left in the Sandhill's birds.

I would always be interested in hearing what else might be out there. I always wondered if there was another flock or two around.