Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[3riverschick]

Since the original purpose of these nice fast growing lt sussex is to put food on the table, killing them for food makes sense. But would n't you want to raise them up a little longer to fill out?? Picking the best males means growing them out. Geez, Karen, If I lived closer I would take them all home and feed them up and then invite them to freezer camp.

Do you eat them? Or just enjoy breeding them?? No judgement here. Had an uncle with the best racing pigeons around. He didn't eat the culls. (I do wish he was still around to ask questions. )

I don't know how to process them. Rumor is, there is a couple of folks several towns over who process for 2.00 a bird. But I don't know where they are. I do enjoy just breeding them. It's like laying fantasy football. To see what all the planning will reveal. It was just surprising how well the males turned out compared to the females
Because of the fact this was a 1/2 bro to 1/2 sis breeding, I was expecting more similarity between the males and females. Males look like their sire, females don't look like either. The pullets came out with cushions and narrower rears which neither sire nor dam have. I am sure there is some rule of chicken genetics to cover this. Just haven't found it yet. I was really breeding for pullets this year so this is a big disappointment.
Best,
Karen

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Karen, this is your first year breeding these birds. Much to learn about the genetics that are hidden in there. You know the saying : " best laid plans .. . . " LOL I look at some of my horses and wonder" HOw did that happen?" LOL

I remember when the animal inspector was telling me to just go buy a ram at the auctions. I politely acknowledged the possibility but had NO intentions of EVER buying from the auctions. I have bred my sheep for a long time and I know what the produce.

While this years pullets are not what you were expecting I saw one comment that said this is not a problem.This subject is beyond my abilites. DId you contact the breeder you obtained the trio from?? He/SHe would be the expert about the narrower rears in this line.

 

[BGMatt]

I don't know how to process them. Rumor is, there is a couple of folks several towns over who process for 2.00 a bird. But I don't know where they are.  I do enjoy just breeding them. It's like laying fantasy football.  To see what all the planning will reveal. It was just surprising how well the males turned out compared to the females
 Because of the fact this was a 1/2 bro to 1/2 sis breeding, I was expecting more similarity between the males and females. Males look like their sire, females don't look like either. The pullets came out with cushions and narrower  rears which neither sire nor dam have. I am sure there is some rule of chicken genetics to cover this. Just haven't found it yet. I was really breeding for pullets this year so this is a big disappointment.
 Best,
 Karen

I'd ask the breeder if it's a known problem in the line. Regardless of breed there is no perfect line. You could take the least objectionable of the cockerels and go back to the dams in an effort to draw out the dams better type and vice versa with the least objectionable pullets to their sire. If I'm reading right that would be the best way to pull it out. Sometimes with chickens you have to take a step back to take three steps forward, especially if you're new to the line.

 

[3riverschick]

I'd ask the breeder if it's a known problem in the line. Regardless of breed there is no perfect line. You could take the least objectionable of the cockerels and go back to the dams in an effort to draw out the dams better type and vice versa with the least objectionable pullets to their sire. If I'm reading right that would be the best way to pull it out. Sometimes with chickens you have to take a step back to take three steps forward, especially if you're new to the line.

Hi Matt and rielle,
As far as I know, narrow rears are not a problem in this strain. Just seems this is something come from back somewhere. None of my foundation trio manifests this. Walt B. Has always been very open about his strain I know he would have mentioned this if it was a issue.
You have a good idea. Maybe I can breed past this without an outcross if I do it right. I just so wanted a real nice pullet since the dam is so nice. Well they have started laying, that is something at least with eggs at 2.00 a dozen, smile...and organic free range at 3.50 a dozen.
Just found out I can worm my birds by feeding them Halloween pumpkins. Apparently that slimy coating on the seeds paralyzes the worms so the birds can expel them. I have not seen any evidence of worms in my birds. But if they like pumpkin, can get a 2 for 1, smile.
Best,
Karen

 

[Maggiesdad]

Next season, I am killing all the cockerels as soon as I figure out they are male.
I don't need to be feeding all these useless males I can't place outside this flock.
Best,
Karen

I don't know how to process them. Rumor is, there is a couple of folks several towns over who process for 2.00 a bird. But I don't know where they are. I do enjoy just breeding them. It's like laying fantasy football. To see what all the planning will reveal. It was just surprising how well the males turned out compared to the females
Because of the fact this was a 1/2 bro to 1/2 sis breeding, I was expecting more similarity between the males and females. Males look like their sire, females don't look like either. The pullets came out with cushions and narrower rears which neither sire nor dam have. I am sure there is some rule of chicken genetics to cover this. Just haven't found it yet. I was really breeding for pullets this year so this is a big disappointment.
Best,
Karen

Still very much a chicken noob here, but I've found that by knowing my birds that intimately through the processing process has helped me a lot (understanding frames, and where the meat is and isn't under those feathers). To me, eating what you cull is very much a part of this whole chicken breeding deal...
Search Yellow House's posts on spatchcocking and cooking, and take your level of appreciating what your birds can do to a whole new level.

Those cockerels don't eat much at all getting to the 1.5 -2lb range, and they are oh so good... kind of like a personal pan pizza! don't have to share it with anybody lol

 

[Yellow House Farm]

kind of like a personal pan pizza!

LMAO....I am absolutely quoting you on that someday, somewhere, somehow!

 

[Arielle]

Karen, I would still bring up the issue to the breeder. Maybe it was something that he fixed some time ago and now it is manifesting it self again; or this is new and he needs to know about it. THe good breeders like Walt B are forthright, and as such he would want to know you have a concern-- he does not entrust his birds to just anyone . . . .

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Remember, everyone, that this is a journey, by which I'm not waxing poetic. Once you get down to your breed, perhaps, two breeds, you begin the process of getting to know your actual birds, not the breed description on-line or in some book, by you get to know the birds in your backyard. One of the things we must all get to know about our flocks is their "breeding tendencies". What one sees when one looks at a bird is referred to as phenotype. What one has for genetic potential for variance is referred to as genotype. You have to breed your birds for a few seasons at least to get a feel for what your birds have underneath. The genes will recombine again and again showing you everything that can happen. When we're beginning, we start dreaming forward of what we want to do, and we make plans a breeding schemes and what not to support our hopes. The difficulty is that it doesn't work. I do, however, think that it's a necessary step because it causes one to do one's research and really connect cerebrally with one's stock. However, where you need to begin is with the birds that you have where you're at, and the truth of the matter is that it takes a few years of playing with their genes to get a feel for where you need to go. To the extent that is possible, you need to show, make rt connection with possible mentors, and--the best bet possible--invite them to your home to critique your set up and stock. Be malleable and absorb.

Karen, it layman's terms, your birds didn't nick. It happens frequently enough. Some breedings are successes, some are failures. Genetically, it would probably be safe to say that your birds are heterogeneous for several traits and that breeding siblings aligned several of these genes when they recombined, and te-voici. Now, given, you really didn't get the chicks out that you'd like, perhaps more numbers would have opened out on to different results. However, if you could get another pair and shuffle your matings, you'd likely see different results. I would think that your goal would be preparing your incubation set-up for the up-coming season so that you can take advantage of your early hatching. Maggie's Dad is right; if you can figure out how to dress out some of your birds, it will greatly enhance your sense of their physiognomy for breeding. In any case, it's going to take a few seasons for you to get a strong sense of this stock. Lord knows that you're off to good start, though, stock-wise.

Addressing some of the other comments above, yes, all of these variables is why one starts with one breed and variety. There's a lot to be done and learned, and trying to do it with three or more groupings at once will be unsuccessful. I'll beat this dead-horse until it's leather. If you're trying to do multiple things at once, you'll fail. In many ways, this is where KISS begins: a nice simple beginning, in one variety where you're free to give them the attentions that are necessary in order to get to know the breeding tendencies of your birds, learn the infrastructural set up requirements that your breeding program will require, and learn the schedule and systems flow of when and how to assess your stock. The better you know one breed and variety, the better you'll know all poultry because understanding process is understanding much. You'll often notice more experienced breeders balancing projects on top of their main line(s), but, if this is done successfully, it is done on top of years of experience in specialization. Shows are habitually won by, which is to say that the best birds are produced by, breeders who specialize.

Once you've chosen your direction, just chill out and watch your birds. Get to know them. Sit with them and your Standard and go over them line by line again and again. Please remember that this is a journey. Your birds with be near or far to the Standard in a number of ways, and this includes production. You can't have it all at once, and some traits are quantitative, which means that they build up over time within a line through continued selection pressure, which also explains why outcrossing a line can be dangerous. Several coveted qualities are quantitative; you build them up step by step over several seasons. However, adding new stock can undermine all of that allelic accumulation in one breeding.

As you're figuring things out, I can only offer you what has been successful for us. Once, I began hard core breeding efforts, I realized this is a COMMITMENT. I realized that this was going to take years. I came to a clear realization that if I were to establish production qualities outside of standard-bred breed type, the only way for me to then gain standard-bred breed type would be for me to begin selecting against the production I worked so hard to establish in order to retain birds that would better exemplify the Standard. Then, the more I studied, observed, attended shows, etc..., the more I realized that the hallmark of any breed is its type and with that type a type-specific production potential that defines the breed. I came to understand that type becomes the stage and backdrop upon which one actualizes breed-specific production. Thus, the first step was to breed birds that exemplified their standard (building the barn), and then breed for heightened production. Wait, you say, production is so important! Well, of course, which is why the standards for each breed are written to produce a frame that supports strong production. The frame of standard-bred birds will produce well. Once you have a line that consistently falls within that framework, you can then begin the work of breeding birds that utilize that genetic potential more and more optimally until you have developed a standard-bred bird that embodies all of the ideals that are its raison-d'etre. If you try to begin first with production, you'll simply reinvent hatchery birds. Consider here that we're discussing a ten to twenty year project depending on the current status quo of the breed and variety you select. Thus, one breed, one variety. You simply can't do all of this selection and numbers breeding to capture genetic variance with multiple breeds.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Karen, I would still bring up the issue to the breeder. Maybe it was something that he fixed some time ago and now it is manifesting it self again; or this is new and he needs to know about it.

Yup

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Get to know the first fifty pages of the Standard very intimately. The scale of points is very important. The most point-rich elements are, in descending order: condition and vigor, back, breast, body and fluff; ergo, they're the meat of the bird. Nevertheless, don't get it into your head that it's all or nothing in one direction. On wants to emphasize these points without sacrificing other points. Ergo, if you loose or allow to creep in major color flaws because of a desire to select too intensely for a specific quality too quickly, you can be setting yourself up for years of reparative therapy.