Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Arielle]

Quote: All my TP passes the Charmin test....... goes with modern plumbing! lol

 

[bnjrob]

Now..if you really want to point a finger at disease running rampant through poultry and other livestock, you can point one at that man and the result you got in your birds and I'll tell you why. The antibiotics do weaken the pathogen and it can even possibly kill them off in such numbers that they no longer affect the host to such a degree. But...what about the pathogens that survived the antibiotic? They survived. Not only did they survive but they then breed more just like themselves, little carbon copies that genetically have a strong resistance to the antibiotic and can thrive past it...they even form a hard shell around their cells so that simple white blood cells found in the average immune system cannot penetrate them. This leaves a bird with a small colony of resistant pathogens strolling into the average flock of birds that are good at resisting the regular run of the mill GM but all the sudden they are exposed to SUPER GM, Resistant to all Evil Antibiotics and WBC that were previously their kryptonite.

The man you got your birds from feeds an antibiotic that is supposed to work on GM.... as a daily feed ration? Pretty soon that's like water off a duck's back to the super GM he is breeding that will travel with his flocks everywhere they go, all the eggs they produce, wreaking havoc on all the birds who would normally resist infection but are presented with an amped up version of GM because Farmer Tom decided to use broad spectrum antibiotics each and every day. Oh..and add to that GM all the other baddies because "broad-spectrum" means just that..is supposed to kill a broad range of pathogens. Lovely. Good job, Farmer Tom.

This is why we have wonderfully strong pathogens that kill those humans who ingest them, like E. coli ST131. The average person is ingesting e.coli sourced from another host for the better part of their lives as they move through this world and their bodies shake it off like it were a fly....no worries. Then drug resistant and superfly strong e.coli gets introduced into our food supply by Farmer Tom~AKA Too lazy and greedy to do things right, so will just feed antibiotics to make up for his shoddy livestock husbandry~and folks...and birds and cows, pigs and sheep... start to die.

Essentially, he is breeding very strong germ genetics that will still be around when he is long dead and gone. <Insert slow clap here> His legacy will live on...and on...and on as each consecutive generation of lazy and greedy farmer feeds the next new drug to the next strong generation of germs. Yahoo. What a great heritage line is being developed...everyone stand up and pay attention to that guy because he is really leaving footprints on this land.

Should you start feeding antibiotic laced feed to your flock? Sure..if you want to develop a strong heritage line of pathogens.

Sorry for the sarcasm and it is not directed towards you, Tammy as you are merely a victim, but this topic really gets my tailfeathers in a flip....

I'm less concerned about farmers/commercial food producers putting antibiotics in livestock feed than I am about every day people.

In my experience, the general public is the biggest threat because they want quick fixes for whatever ails them, their families, and their animals.

We have people demanding antibiotics for snotty noses, coughs, sore throats - and docs giving them the RX just to shut the people up and get them out of the office and hopefully not page them in the middle of the night because their kid is miserable and mom and dad can't sleep. Let's not forget that most instances of feeling sick and lousy are due to viruses, not bacteria and antibiotics are not effective against viruses.

We have the people who feel good after a day or two on antibiotics given for an appropriate purpose, so the people stop taking the prescription, not realizing that antibiotics have been tested to see how much drug for how long needs to be given to kill the average bacteria - thus they don't kill the bacteria they have, they just beat it back a little and their immune system suppresses the bacteria, but doesn't kill it. And then they continue the cycle of illness and unfinished antibiotic prescriptions until the bacteria mutates into being antibiotic resistant.

Then there are the people that refuse to spend the money to go to the veterinarian - they go see "Dr. Google" and try to diagnose their animal and then treat it based on recommendations from a word-of-mouth or online source (like BYC). But they don't realize that many illnesses have similar symptoms and they choose the wrong antibiotic at the feed store or don't give the antibiotic long enough or at the correct dosage to kill what the dog/cat/chicken/horse/cow/sheep/what-have-you actually had.

There is some oversight of commercial food animal producers to keep a good many of them honest when it comes to injudicious antibiotic use. It's too expensive to pay fines levied by the USDA and other agencies, or go to court, for these commercial producers to go against approved guidelines for antibiotic usage. But there is no regulation of the general public and even less knowledge among the general public of what they are doing when they demand antibiotics for every little thing.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Funny you mention this--- I had not put2 and 2 together. Lost a bunch in 2012 in a brooder, but a hen raised 12 outside and all grew up healthy. Hmmmmm. Need broodies.

THis begs the question, how to have early hatches when the broodies don't gt into mother mode until late spring?

 

[Beekissed]

LONG AGO....most chicks were hatched by a broody hen. As a result they are exposed to cocci from day 1 and develop an immunity to it. I've never had a broody raised chick contract cocci....but have had MANY an incubator/brooder raised bunch come down with it

Not sure how long coccidiostats have been around.....it was developed for cattle, so it may have been around quite a while

Edited to say: I also think (opinion here) chickens today are more prone to confined areas than in years past. Keeping the birds in one area as opposed to free range also concentrates the cocci in small areas where the birds are more prone to getting it

I agree, so maybe working around those factors are needed for a more long range effectiveness on coccidia? Exposing chicks in the brooder to bedding from the adult pen on that very first day. Increasing the natural beneficial growth inside the bowels so that colonies of coccidia cannot attach to the bowel wall and proliferate there. Using the type of beneficial bacteria/yeasts whose good, healthy metabolism produces chemicals that inhibit the reproduction of coccidia, salmonella, e. coli, etc. Using a cultured deep litter in the coops and runs to produce the same good, beneficial bacteria and yeasts in the run soils so that coccidia do not thrive so well there...if coccidia grows well in warm, moist conditions so will the beneficials...it's like a petri dish and placing the correct microorganisms in the dish can control the colonies forming there.

The last batch of chicks I received were brooded right on the coop floor where my adult birds live...right in the deep litter that has been building for a good half year. I lost 2 chicks at the 1 1/2 wk mark but no evidence of coccidia with the typical bloody stool, etc...just slept away. Twenty-six birds survived and thrived. Who knows if coccidia killed those chicks and I don't care....they were too weak to survive the normal conditions in their habitat and so nature did a quick cull.

It's simply a more proactive approach to the microorganism cultures inside the birds and inside their environment that has a more long lasting effect than having to use curative methods.

 

[RiddleMe]

 

 
What did poultry fanciers do for coccidia before they had amprollium and Sulmet?  That's what I would do if developing heritage stock...use a natural way to decrease the overgrowth of coccidia in the coop and soil environment and also in the intestines.  There has to be a way to do that or we wouldn't have a chicken one on this Earth. 

LONG AGO....most chicks were hatched by a broody hen.  As a result they are exposed to cocci from day 1 and develop an immunity to it.  I've never had a broody raised chick contract cocci....but have had MANY an incubator/brooder raised bunch come down with it

Not sure how long coccidiostats have been around.....it was developed for cattle, so it may have been around quite a while

Edited to say: I also think (opinion here) chickens today are more prone to confined areas than in years past.  Keeping the birds in one area as opposed to free range also concentrates the cocci in small areas where the birds are more prone to getting it

Funny you mention this--- I had not put2 and 2 together. Lost a bunch in 2012 in a brooder, but a hen raised 12 outside and all grew up healthy.  Hmmmmm. Need broodies.

THis begs the question, how to have early hatches when the broodies don't gt into mother mode until late spring?

I don't seem to have issues with cocci where I live, but just in case, I start putting "soil samples" in my brooder box from day one. It varies from a grass plug to a small scoop of dirt, I try to get them from the existing runs/free range areas and usually just toss something new in each day. Seems to work, I've never noticed any issues when they hit the ground for good.

Edited to move my response outside the quotes.

 

[RiddleMe]

 
LONG AGO....most chicks were hatched by a broody hen.  As a result they are exposed to cocci from day 1 and develop an immunity to it.  I've never had a broody raised chick contract cocci....but have had MANY an incubator/brooder raised bunch come down with it

Not sure how long coccidiostats have been around.....it was developed for cattle, so it may have been around quite a while

Edited to say: I also think (opinion here) chickens today are more prone to confined areas than in years past.  Keeping the birds in one area as opposed to free range also concentrates the cocci in small areas where the birds are more prone to getting it

I agree, so maybe working around those factors are needed for a more long range effectiveness on coccidia?  Exposing chicks in the brooder to bedding from the adult pen on that very first day.  Increasing the natural beneficial growth inside the bowels so that colonies of coccidia cannot attach to the bowel wall and proliferate there.  Using the type of beneficial bacteria/yeasts whose good, healthy metabolism produces chemicals that inhibit the reproduction of coccidia, salmonella, e. coli, etc.  Using a cultured deep litter in the coops and runs to produce the same good, beneficial bacteria and yeasts in the run soils so that coccidia do not thrive so well there...if coccidia grows well in warm, moist conditions so will the beneficials...it's like a petri dish and placing the correct microorganisms in the dish can control the colonies forming there. 

The last batch of chicks I received were brooded right on the coop floor where my adult birds live...right in the deep litter that has been building for a good half year.  I lost 2 chicks at the 1 1/2 wk mark but no evidence of coccidia with the typical bloody stool, etc...just slept away.  Twenty-six birds survived and thrived.  Who knows if coccidia killed those chicks and I don't care....they were too weak to survive the normal conditions in their habitat and so nature did a quick cull. 

It's simply a more proactive approach to the microorganism cultures inside the birds and inside their environment that has a more long lasting effect than having to use curative methods. 

Good ideas, I'm sure I get some of the good stuff scooping dirt from the runs but this guarantees controlled exposure, going to add it to the regimen.

 

[Arielle]

You??? How grateful do you think I am?

Seriously...every single time I step into a hot shower I thank the Lord for it. Each and every time for years now...ever since I moved away from the old homestead and got running water and electricity, I've never taken it for granted. More folks need to have several years of roughin' it and then come back to the luxuries of indoor plumbing, light switches and telephones. You'd see a lot less dissatisfied people out there.

Me? I'M RICH. Got all the necessities of a good life..toilet, shower, washing machine~and toilet paper!

I'm with you Bee .. . . . . and thank the lord every day.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

umm...if memory serves me right, either Fred or Al posted in the old-timer's thread about brooding multiple batches of chicks in a utility trailer, then dumping the accumulated litter on the garden at the end of brooding season. That old-timer stated he had no problems with cocci using this system.
(scratching my head...)
Angela

 

[Beekissed]

I do believe that was Fred who broods in a wagon...good memory.

I read an article one time some broiler houses and their high incidence of coccidiosis deaths in their chicks and they found they experienced higher numbers of this when the deep litter was changed out and it had been replaced with fresh before the next batch of chicks. As I understood it, they were raising several batches on the litter, letting it build all the while and, finally, they would clean out the litter pack and start new litter. Said they had more chick deaths on new shavings than they did on old, accumulated bedding so they started leaving some of the old bedding in the houses to inoculate the new bedding and it resolved the high mortality rates.

Quote:
This paragraph begs the question: Why not just leave some of the bedding in place to establish those immunities? Such as in the following....

Quote:

 

[Extra Java]

Quote: Wow! Very, very nice.

I saw the NH hen she was lovely. This duck is gorgeous. Traveling with 38+ birds 1,000 miles?! Amazing. Hat's off to you - Good job!