Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Beekissed]

So, what does that mean for the heritage stock chick hatched at Farmer A's farm and shipped to Farmer B's farm? That they will automatically have different results in their lines, even if they feed the exact same ration because the environment has changed? What things in that environment~other than the local pathogens that could effect growth rates~could affect the course of their development per genetic predisposition?

 

[capayvalleychick]

(Bee-- lye soap is supposed to be better because all the glycerin is still in there. OR have I missed something? YOu can pm me.)

Soapmakers have a saying - "no lye, no soap". All soap is made with lye or it's not soap. The process of making soap requires lye in order for the fats & oils to react and create the caustic solution necessary to create soap.

 

[Extra Java]

WFBS from Saturday's Ventura, CA show.

 

[Zanna]

Soapmakers have a saying - "no lye, no soap". All soap is made with lye or it's not soap. The process of making soap requires lye in order for the fats & oils to react and create the caustic solution necessary to create soap.

Arielle, just sent you a PM regarding this. Kim said it much better than me I make all of our soap, including castile for cleaning leather tack.

 

[MagicChicken]

So, what does that mean for the heritage stock chick hatched at Farmer A's farm and shipped to Farmer B's farm? That they will automatically have different results in their lines, even if they feed the exact same ration because the environment has changed? What things in that environment~other than the local pathogens that could effect growth rates~could affect the course of their development per genetic predisposition?

Short answer: Yes they may have different results in their lines because environment plays a role in the end results.

Longer answer: Genes give a road map but the environment affects how the genes are expressed. Different genes may be turned on or off by different factors in the environment. Feed and forage are a big part of environment but there are also weather conditions, ventilation issues, lighting changes, housing differences, pathogen and predator differences which can all be triggers for epigenetic effects (effects of the environment on genes and the way they function).

Epigenetic effects can have a significant impact on development of an organism. There are indications that those epigenetic effects may sometimes be heritable. Which is something a lot of folks "know" by observation but science has been slow to document. It's not easy to document and there is considerable argument about what is really going on - particularly regarding heritability and how that might work. Here's an article that discusses epigenetics, although it does not relate directly to chickens:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/inheritance/

And this article on genetic imprinting may relate to why some birds are prepotent - able to stamp their characteristics on their offspring regardless of the quality of their mate. The article relates mostly to mammals. The process likely occurs in chickens too but the specifics may be different:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/imprinting/index.html

You don't have to know any of this stuff to breed chickens. Most of it was "discovered" in the last couple of decades. But the folks who said "buy from south to north" knew from experience that this kind of stuff happens, even if they didn't know how it worked.

Sarah

 

[3riverschick]

Hey beekissed, congrats on your Educator award!

 

[3riverschick]

Epigenetic effects can have a significant impact on development of an organism.
There are indications that those epigenetic effects may sometimes be heritable.
Which is something a lot of folks "know" by observation but science has been
slow to document. It's not easy to document and there is considerable argument
about what is really going on - particularly regarding heritability and how that might
work. Here's an article that discusses epigenetics, although it does not relate directly to
chickens: http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/inheritance/
===================
I have a friend in dogs who is very lucid about epigenetics. In her chosen breed, she took
a strain known for its weak rears and by applying epigenetics to her puppy development
program, now 5+ years and several generations later, has a strain known for
their strong rears and good movement. Quite an accomplishment in dogs where so
many factors effect the rear assembly.
Best,
Karen

 

[Wynette]

Magic, that is SO very interesting to me. I purchased some birds from a breeder in Florida in February; they're single combed, and GOODNESS they have honking huge combs. I have the exact same breed, and live in Michigan. The breeder told me that the birds bred in Florida have larger combs due to the comb helping to dissipate heat, and that through the years, they've adapted to heat by (in one way) increasing comb size. My first thought was....HUH? I thought she'd gone off her rocker. But, the longer I thought about it, the longer it made sense. I'll find out for myself in a few years, I guess, as I'm keeping that line pure on my farm. If I see comb size diminishing, I guess that'd fall under the proof being in the pudding.

 

[catdaddyfro]

Magic, that is SO very interesting to me. I purchased some birds from a breeder in Florida in February; they're single combed, and GOODNESS they have honking huge combs. I have the exact same breed, and live in Michigan. The breeder told me that the birds bred in Florida have larger combs due to the comb helping to dissipate heat, and that through the years, they've adapted to heat by (in one way) increasing comb size. My first thought was....HUH? I thought she'd gone off her rocker. But, the longer I thought about it, the longer it made sense. I'll find out for myself in a few years, I guess, as I'm keeping that line pure on my farm. If I see comb size diminishing, I guess that'd fall under the proof being in the pudding.

I would think you'd see the comb sizes diminish on the next hatch that you raise solely in your conditions the larger combs are not necessarily genetically bigger it is more like environmental/adaptability bigger. In otherwords those birds grew the combs that was needed in that environment, the ones you hatch there and raise in a cooler climate should grow a comb size necessary for that climate.

Jeff

 

[thedragonlady]

I would think you'd see the comb sizes diminish on the next hatch that you raise solely in your conditions the larger combs are not necessarily genetically bigger it is more like environmental/adaptability bigger. In otherwords those birds grew the combs that was needed in that environment, the ones you hatch there and raise in a cooler climate should grow a comb size necessary for that climate.

Jeff

All the more reason for early fall hatches in the South. Then the birds "Set" their combs during cool weather.