Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[warbirds]

Hi Doc,
I got mine from Walt Boese in Deer Lodge , MT. Color is real nice. I wish I could
move the hackle a bit further up the neck on my males, tho. Nice wraparound on my male's hackles,
Tux's almost meets under his chin.

That's not an easy task! I've been working on the same issue with the American group...........IMHO the black hackle starts too far down on those. I find that waiting until the birds have gone through their second molt to choose better neck hackles works best for this particular group, as by then they are as big as they are going to get, and they can change a lot from pullet/cockerel to fully mature adults. I've had some great surprises and some ugly surprises waiting for those final adult feathers.

Eggs are smaller, hoping that will increase with son to mother cross.
Have a real nice outcross hen here that cost me in trade my foundation cock whose sire was a
3x APA Grand Champion. She's a show winner, but I worry about strain crossing. I have 2 nice sons
of my foundation cock here and will breed her to them. My foundation cock was very prepotent for
himself and stamped himself on his sons. Doncha know I will be doing staggered hatches and
zip tying the shanks to make sure the chicks don't get mislabeled.

I have a very elaborate colored zip-tie chart for my Lights - well, with all the breeds, actually. It's great to be able to see who is who right away. P.I.T.A. when somebody loses one, though!!!

It will be interesting to see the
differences in development as our other breedings will be son to dam; 3/4 bro ex 3/4 sis and full bro ex full sis.
Gonna be a lot of record keeping being done this Spring. that is why I am getting fairly frantic to figure out just
what to record and when.

Record Everything!!! Seriously..............everything and anything. I start with pen number, who is with who, age, lineage, number of eggs, supplements given. Then each chick is marked as soon as it hatches, genders of each hatch are recorded, and when the first cull comes I note any faults, problems, etc. with each chick from each parent. Helps me to identify the "breeding clunkers" quickly. I cull rigorously, starting really from the day of hatch (any obvious problems), then the second cull comes at 3 months, next cull at 5 months, next cull at 7 months, next cull at 9 months..........etc. etc. etc. Times not set in stone, if I identify one who needs removed at any time, I do so..........for example if a cockerel becomes mean at a young age, into the meat pen he goes. Pullets not laying in a decent time frame, into the meat pen. Out of hundreds of chicks hatched each year, maybe 12-18 make it into a breeding pen, then first hatch determines if they stay or if they go. Records are essential in keeping track of it all..................personally, kept in notebooks on real paper written in real ink. Computers are great, but, hard drives crash and files get corrupt; I can reach for a notebook off a shelf at any time, even if the electricity is down. Learned all my lessons the hard way................!!!!

Happy New Year, Doc!
Best Regards,
Karen

Here's to a great 2014 for all of us, and our birds!!!!!
Doc

 

[MagicChicken]

Please remember that this thread is for discussion of heritage large fowl. Breeds are different, management goals are different, resources available are different, and posters' experiences are different. If we could keep in mind that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to do things, and what works for one person or breed may not work for another, it would be helpful. We seem to be descending into ego displays and posts that disrespectful of other posters. Please suck it up, be a mentor, and keep the ego stuff off this thread. We appreciate your information. We do not appreciate the disrespect. Thank you.

Back to heritage large fowl. I just lost my first hatch of complementary pairings of Black Javas to incubator humidity issues. Humidity got too high for an extended period and the eggs that went into the hatcher had very small air sacs. Knew that wasn't good but I was hoping some would hatch. Left them in the hatcher for two days after the expected hatch date and none had pipped. No chicks.

Humidity issue is fixed and I hope it did not affect the next batch, which was in the same incubator but had been in for less time. In the meantime I am going to have to revise this year's breeding plans, because I really needed eggs from the pairings in that first batch. Those eggs had my one and only yellow-soled cockerel as sire, and I need to maintain that yellow gene in the flock. At least it's early in the breeding season and there is still time to recover.

At ten weeks old, the six broody-raised chicks are looking like they are 4 cockerels and either 2 pullets or 2 really slow-maturing cockerels. Sigh. Need pullets!

It's always something.

Sarah

Edited to add that it took me a while to write this post. The first paragraph does not refer to the post above this one! It was meant as a general reminder

 

[LindaB220]

Karen, so very new to this and this info is invaluable. Thanks

Edited: I'm referring to the info from 3riverschick.

 

[catdaddyfro]

That is right. And everyone has a different breed type and ideal in mind when they say it.

My Catalanas are quick to mature, and a bit slow to flesh out. It will be interesting to see what they do this year, when I cross with related but long removed birds that were gifted to me this summer. My pullets would probably achieve better weights if they did not mature as fast as they did. Depending on how things go this year, I may start cutting their feed with oats while on range at a point. Slow them down a bit.

It seams to me that how a bird grows out is as important than when they grow out.

I do not have any experience with Minorcas, but it would seam that you would want them to take enough time to put that big frame on. That is comparing them to a lighter bird, and smaller boned leghorn.
Never had any Malays, but that seams to be a breed that you would want to grow out slow and sure.

I noted that some gamecock breeders let there stags range with little more than whole corn. They have to work to rustle up what they need. It seams that this is in part for practical reasons, but they also want them to grow out slower and more naturally. There is a belief that this makes for stronger more fit birds in the end. It is hard to argue with the results when you see that vigorous proud cock in good feather.

I noticed that some of my fastest maturing Rocks were a bit clumsy on the legs. Some of the more fit birds structurally were in between the slowest and fastest.

I would guess that Javas with their big heavy frames should be allowed to develop. It is not like they were ever commercial birds like a New Hampshire or Delaware.

It seams to me that there are more breeds that came on the scene before the commercialization of poultry meat. Back when dual purpose was as much about the old hens having enough meat on their bones to be worth stewing. Back when poultry meat was seasonal, and they extra cockerels were a buy product of the laying flock. Yes there was market fowl, but that was more for the city folk that could afford it. It was not long ago when a roasted bird was a luxury item.

All of this changed when there was a mass movement to the cities, agriculture became mechanized, and grain became cheap. Modern breeds like New Hampshires and Delawares followed.

Today they are all chickens.

I do think that when we develop these ideals for ourselves, that it is helpful to put it into perspective. The structural differences between breeds seam to have practical implications. It is what made one breed desirable over another at some point. Leghorns were more efficient, but the Minorcas laid bigger eggs. New Hampshires and Delawares were favored when grain was cheap and plentiful. They were more suited for intensive rearing, and they converted their big appetites into flesh. The Rocks and Reds being in between them and the older breeds like the Java.

When we are a breed enthusiast we do and should strive to make improvements. As long as we do not lose what advantages they might have had over another. There are some advantages to some breeds that grow a little more slow and sure.

Sarah, this post is not directed at you. I just rambled off the thoughts that I had when I read your post and considered your Javas. Of course this is all just opinion.

It was not long ago when a roasted bird was a luxury item. good post as always George

So true and eggs used to be worth their weight in gold too, one didn't get fresh eggs or any eggs all year round.

My Grandaddy was born in 1916 he grew up in the south, in the depression. I can still see his face when there was a nice roasted bird placed on the table before him(he didn't smile much a typical product of the great depression) and I remember(that same type smile) when he would come in with his bounty for his toils in the gardens(the fruits of his labors) and I got to witness him to never ever have to eat dried black-eyed peas(or any dry peas) or cornbread ever again for the rest of his life. He got to eat what he wanted not what he (the only thing) he had.

Jeff

 

[brahmabreeder]

I'm deciding to scrap my pair of buff Brahmas and get a breed designed for meat production. The main traits I'd like to see are 1)lots of meat 2)harvestable by six months old 3) cold hardy 4) good feed conversion ratio. Some other things I would like to see but aren't necessary are broodiness, them to be a solid colored variety, and the cocks to be between 7-10 lbs. at maturity. You guys can add any breeds to my list if you'd like as long as it fits the bill.
1) Chantecler
2) Plymouth rock
3) Faverolle
4) Java
5) Sussex
6) Rhode Island
7) Dorking

These are all ones that seem at first glance nice to me I don't know how well they fit. Which are the top three I should be looking into getting?

 

[catdaddyfro]

I'm deciding to scrap my pair of buff Brahmas and get a breed designed for meat production. The main traits I'd like to see are 1)lots of meat 2)harvestable by six months old 3) cold hardy 4) good feed conversion ratio. Some other things I would like to see but aren't necessary are broodiness, them to be a solid colored variety, and the cocks to be between 7-10 lbs. at maturity. You guys can add any breeds to my list if you'd like as long as it fits the bill.
1) Chantecler
2) Plymouth rock
3) Faverolle
4) Java
5) Sussex
6) Rhode Island
7) Dorking

These are all ones that seem at first glance nice to me I don't know how well they fit. Which are the top three I should be looking into getting?

New Hampshire (good ones, not hatchery type)

Jeff

 

[BGMatt]

I'm deciding to scrap my pair of buff Brahmas and get a breed designed for meat production. The main traits I'd like to see are 1)lots of meat 2)harvestable by six months old 3) cold hardy 4) good feed conversion ratio. Some other things I would like to see but aren't necessary are broodiness, them to be a solid colored variety, and the cocks to be between 7-10 lbs. at maturity. You guys can add any breeds to my list if you'd like as long as it fits the bill.
1) Chantecler
2) Plymouth rock
3) Faverolle
4) Java
5) Sussex
6) Rhode Island
7) Dorking

These are all ones that seem at first glance nice to me I don't know how well they fit. Which are the top three I should be looking into getting?

Is the growth rate of the Brahma the reason for searching out another meat breed? Definitely add the New Hampshire to the list, fast maturing was it's calling card when developed. Possibly the Delaware as well.

 

[brahmabreeder]

Yeah that's the reason there. They take forever to get meat on them. I would just breed them but finding good buffs is proving to be a challenge. I mean once they are fully mature the retired birds would make a nice carcass but the excess cockerels are practically worthless. My lights are NOT going any where. I love the way they look plus these birds are looking really good as far as the SOP is concerned. My buffs have narrow tails and the color on them poor.

 

[bnjrob]

I'm deciding to scrap my pair of buff Brahmas and get a breed designed for meat production. The main traits I'd like to see are 1)lots of meat 2)harvestable by six months old 3) cold hardy 4) good feed conversion ratio. Some other things I would like to see but aren't necessary are broodiness, them to be a solid colored variety, and the cocks to be between 7-10 lbs. at maturity. You guys can add any breeds to my list if you'd like as long as it fits the bill.
1) Chantecler
2) Plymouth rock
3) Faverolle
4) Java
5) Sussex
6) Rhode Island
7) Dorking

These are all ones that seem at first glance nice to me I don't know how well they fit. Which are the top three I should be looking into getting?

No experience with anything but Javas but they were my top choice when I was choosing a breed and have been very happy with them - no desire to have any other breed. A few of our Javas have gone broody so many times that I have to just throw them in the broody breaker cage to get eggs from them sometimes. Good foragers, weather hardy for hot and cold - they prefer cold weather though. Largest cockerels we've butchered dressed out around 5 lbs. Ours lay about every other to every couple of days. Javas come in Black if you only want solid color, otherwise you can choose Mottleds and there are some that are working on Auburns which are not SOP. There are also a few Whites (removed from SOP 100+yrs ago) around although they are not as easy to find and there is still issues with getting Whites that have willow legs instead of yellow/dark legs.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
If you are specifically looking for meat production with birds harvestable by six months, I don't recommend the Java. Javas are solid dual purpose birds. Mine are smart and they are good foragers. I think they are great birds. But there are reasons why the breed became less popular as other breeds came along. Some of those other breeds you listed will give you faster meat production.

In my Javas the pullets run small. At six months the cockerels may weigh 5 pounds but it is mostly bone and leg. The breasts don't fill out until much later. My cockerels didn't hit SOP weight (for cockerels) until they were at least 10 months old, and a lot of them remain undersized at one year. All of these things can be improved somewhat with management and breeding pressure, but Javas are not likely to fill out and be great meat birds by six months - especially if you want breast meat out of them. If you want legs they are excellent.