Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Beekissed]

Early, early on . . . they were much different than they are now. Not even recognizable. They were not nearly as profusely feathered, just soft feathered and were more of a general dual purpose bird. They are strictly an ornamental now.
Now you can appreciate the Cochin in what they contributed to other breeds.

The breed that I am toying with, the Catalana, was based on land race fowl and the Cochin of the time. Maybe more like what was called Cochin Chinas (?).

The change they have made is dramatic. Try to find some early sketches of them and you will see what I am saying. It was not just a US change either. It was a European thing also. The soft feather seamed to be one of the features that was appreciated about them, and it grew and grew.

Someone like Saladin might have something to offer on this topic. Someone with a better historical perspective. I have come to my conclusions based on pictures, and little pieces that I have picked up on.

Thank you for the reply! I got little response on the Cochin thread about it, other than they don't eat their birds so no one is interested in developing them into an edible product.

The only reason I asked was that I recently came into the possession of a SLC cock and was holding him over to gain more weight before processing...but became interested in studying up on the breed and was surprised to find they weren't always an ornamental breed..they had a reputation for good meat and egg laying qualities, not to mention broodiness of the females.

Was thinking it would be quite a challenge for someone to develop that particular breed back to a utility bird while still having it look good....just thinking.....

 

[fowlman01]

I want to make sure that it is understood that I did not disagree. Your advice about getting involved and becoming more familiar with what is out there is the best possible advice. Especially when compared to sorting through the internet chatter, or sorting through local backyard propagators.


I only wanted to add that in some particular cases technology is helpful in locating hard to find birds. That point was directed to any possible reader that had went through the motions and had repeatedly come to dead ends. It was made to say that today . . . If it is there, it could be found.

I also want to add that it is a privilege for all of us to have people like Walt to contribute. It can be difficult for new people like myself to sort through the clutter, and easy to get swept into believing all kinds of things. I think that I pick up on something from nearly every post.

It is always good to qualify situations. Each is a bit different, but when you say "online chatter", that is what leads new folks down the road to ruin. lol
Off otoyet another poultry show. with 32 bird entered.

w.

 

[NotAFarm]

Walt, "Break a wing".......or what ever is said to Master Breeders as they go to a show...I would venture to say that your winning has nothing to do with luck, so I won't say "Good Luck"

 

[gjensen]

Thank you for the reply! I got little response on the Cochin thread about it, other than they don't eat their birds so no one is interested in developing them into an edible product.

The only reason I asked was that I recently came into the possession of a SLC cock and was holding him over to gain more weight before processing...but became interested in studying up on the breed and was surprised to find they weren't always an ornamental breed..they had a reputation for good meat and egg laying qualities, not to mention broodiness of the females.

Was thinking it would be quite a challenge for someone to develop that particular breed back to a utility bird while still having it look good....just thinking.....

The first thing I would want to do, concerning utility, is to get rid of all of that feather. Then today, it would no longer be a Cochin. Or would not look like what we have come to see them as.

Extra feather and fluff and utility do not go together. There is a lot of protein in all of that feather.

I do think that they would be fine for someone that admired the breed, wanted a few eggs, broody hens, and the extra cockerels would certainly be edible. Maybe even good. I just consider them ornamental. I am not nocking the breed or who might keep them.

Many find the breed attractive.

 

[Beekissed]

The first thing I would want to do, concerning utility, is to get rid of all of that feather. Then today, it would no longer be a Cochin. Or would not look like what we have come to see them as.

Extra feather and fluff and utility do not go together. There is a lot of protein in all of that feather.

I do think that they would be fine for someone that admired the breed, wanted a few eggs, broody hens, and the extra cockerels would certainly be edible. Maybe even good. I just consider them ornamental. I am not nocking the breed or who might keep them.

Many find the breed attractive.

I understand that! But, then, I'm used to using White Rocks that produce meat and eggs exceptionally well and still have the best, most luxuriant feathering of any breed I've ever had, so was wondering if there isn't a fine balance to be had there. I know Dragonlady seems to have found that balance with her BOs and reports excellent laying and meat properties in her fluffy bunch.

I'm wondering, does there always have to be a sacrifice of one trait to get good qualities on another or can there ever be a good marriage of the two like I've discovered in the Plymouth White Rocks?

 

[thedragonlady]

I understand that! But, then, I'm used to using White Rocks that produce meat and eggs exceptionally well and still have the best, most luxuriant feathering of any breed I've ever had, so was wondering if there isn't a fine balance to be had there. I know Dragonlady seems to have found that balance with her BOs and reports excellent laying and meat properties in her fluffy bunch.

I'm wondering, does there always have to be a sacrifice of one trait to get good qualities on another or can there ever be a good marriage of the two like I've discovered in the Plymouth White Rocks?

Bee,

If you look at the standards for Orps and Rocks, you'll see the similarities in the two breeds in US birds. The UK Orps have had a lot of Cochin infused, and are very short bodied, and therefore not as good layers as the US birds. The US Orps had so much Rock infused into them during the war years, that they lost depth of keel.Orps had always been a deeper, more massive bird than Rocks,and show rocks in the US have now been bred with very long tails, and many lines have lost depth of fore chest, and underline.

My thinking in using UK birds, who are NOT the extreme Cochin bodied, or feathered birds, was solely to improve depth of body, and improve fore chests that had been lost.The results have been very positive.

To produce a true dual purpose fowl is always a balancing act between meat and layer type.
Two cockerels. The one on the left is 5 1/2 months old. He will produce a better laying female. The cockerel on the right is 6 months old. He will produce more meat on good laying females.

 

[Beekissed]

Excellent post, DL! Just what I was looking for and your birds are fantastic, BTW! I've noticed the heritage WRs I have seem to have gained a long tail but lost a little torso/body length compared to the hatchery stock WRs I've had. Time will tell if they gain that good, dense meatiness that I like in the breed with some maturity.

Thank you for that tidbit...will put it in my braincase for later!

I love getting good answers to questions and I get those quite often on this thread.

 

[call ducks]

Quote: Karen,

While it maybe exciting I would use caution. I talked to Emily about this recent import and she guesses that they came from an English line originally.
Also the fact they have won an award would make me very hesitant to use them in any breeding program for the next two years. I am speculating the only good cross that these lines could be crossed with is the Australian lines....

 

[Arielle]

Quote: EYe candy!!!!!

 

[BGMatt]

Which brings me to some exciting news. I found out last night on another BYC thread Greenfire Farms
was explaining they had imported Light Sussex from Europe in 2013. They are from the Swedish National
Champions. GF has eggs in the incubator now. This is exciting news. I can' wait to see pics of the birds.
Best Regards,
Karen

Given their track record, I'd contain the excitement. Any breeder knows that no matter the quality of the parents the offspring are not guaranteed to be the same quality. People never seem to get that. Just because a bird is from this line or that line does NOT mean it's a great bird and should be bred from, unless it is in fact a good bird (and we all know a hatchery, especially the one in question, doesn't give two rips about the quality of the animals). Breed birds not names.