Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Arielle]

Arielle what action does the vinegar have that keeps your water "clean"? Please explain it to me how it works.

I'm not a chemist, but I suspect it is along the same lines as pickling. That the slime doesn't develop was just a happy side effect of feeding unpasturized apple cider vinegar.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: He used more than the 1T/gal but didn't specify. Eventually it did freeze as I remember. Not perfect but bought more time. I personally just go to a large bucket ( skip the vinegar) and let the mass of warm water do its thing.

WHen we built the house I had hot water plumbed to the outside next to the cold faucet.

 

[gjensen]

It doesn't. Pure and simple. All it does is make the water acidic enough that some pathogens cannot grow there, which is why vinegar is approved by the USDA for canning purposes, as it is the only known food grade agent that can kill botulism.

In short, it can keep the water from growing some nasties in the hot weather and may even kill nasties that are known to spread from one bird to another via shared watering.

Here's one about tuberculosis: http://mbio.asm.org/content/5/2/e00013-14.full

It takes more than a TBSP per gallon to do it, is my point. By the time you add enough to be effective, the birds will not drink it.

 

[LindaB220]

Hi everyone! Just found this thread

♡

Welcome. good to have you here.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/disinfection_sterilization/3_3inactivbioagents.html

http://www.aciscience.net/docs/Alternative_Hard_Surface_Cleaners.pdf

This one stated that the vinegar was more effective that other alternative disinfectants for reducing microbial contamination.
Thanks Bee, I was hoping you would stop by and save me. lol

I use vinegar to clean my windows-- safe enough to have little kids help and saves on adding more NH3 into the atmosphere.

My evidence is antecdotal-- but I know it is true. ANyone can run there own experiments.

As for internet stuff-- I use what I know to judge if the info is correct and look at the source. Yesterday I had an interesting conversation with a vet, she a vegetarian because of all the scientific studies that link meat to colon cancer and other cancers. Yet my colon doc didn't mention a thing about eliminating meat from my diet. As she said we can find studies that say anything. THat too much be judged on the source AND carefullyunderstnd the information of the study is usually not a cause and effect but simply a corelation.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: George perhapst you can try an experiment at 1T/gal and see what the outcome is?? Test it for yourself. . . .

NOt every cleaner is used at full strength to be effective. Chlorohexine, chlorine are all used at various strengths depending on what microbes are the target.

I use 1:1 water to vinegar when pickling eggs for food consumption. and 1T/gal in the drinking water. Full strength to clean my windows-- just because I am too lazy to dilute it.

 

[gjensen]

George perhapst you can try an experiment at 1T/gal and see what the outcome is?? Test it for yourself. . . .

NOt every cleaner is used at full strength to be effective. Chlorohexine, chlorine are all used at various strengths depending on what microbes are the target.

I use 1:1 water to vinegar when pickling eggs for food consumption. and 1T/gal in the drinking water. Full strength to clean my windows-- just because I am too lazy to dilute it.

Arielle you should have used my logic against me and told me to prove that it did not work . . .

I did use to use it in the water. I bought into it. Heck I used it for a couple years. Over time I started questioning why, and ran a set of pens one way and another. I could see that there was no measurable difference between the pens, or the bird's health. That is how I became skeptical.

The conclusion that I come to is that you can't add enough to change the PH enough without the birds not wanting to drink it. Also that the concentration was not enough to aid me with the condition of the waterer itself.

I will never dispute that ACV is an effective antiseptic. I will never dispute that it is useful for a number of things.

My position is still that I cannot add enough to the bird's water to benefit them, and them still drink it. That is the point where I would have to see evidence. I do not like spending time and money on things that does no practical good. No one has provided me that evidence. I would love to see it. I like to be corrected. Better than being wrong.

On the other hand I cannot prove that it is not helpful in their water. I certainly would not suggest someone stopping a practice that they felt benefited their birds. I do suspect however, that we do a lot of things that make us feel better about what we do, rather than accomplish anything measurable.

Goodness, and whoever suggested Google something . . . . We are probably the most informed generation ever and at the same time the most mislead generation ever. Largely thanks to Google. LOL.

 

[hellbender]

Arielle you should have used my logic against me and told me to prove that it did not work . . .

I did use to use it in the water. I bought into it. Heck I used it for a couple years. Over time I started questioning why, and ran a set of pens one way and another. I could see that there was no measurable difference between the pens, or the bird's health. That is how I became skeptical.

The conclusion that I come to is that you can't add enough to change the PH enough without the birds not wanting to drink it. Also that the concentration was not enough to aid me with the condition of the waterer itself.

I will never dispute that ACV is an effective antiseptic. I will never dispute that it is useful for a number of things.

My position is still that I cannot add enough to the bird's water to benefit them, and them still drink it. That is the point where I would have to see evidence. I do not like spending time and money on things that does no practical good. No one has provided me that evidence. I would love to see it. I like to be corrected. Better than being wrong.

On the other hand I cannot prove that it is not helpful in their water. I certainly would not suggest someone stopping a practice that they felt benefited their birds. I do suspect however, that we do a lot of things that make us feel better about what we do, rather than accomplish anything measurable.

Goodness, and whoever suggested Google something . . . . We are probably the most informed generation ever and at the same time the most mislead generation ever. Largely thanks to Google. LOL.

I've used ACV for decades in the water of dairy buck goats for the prevention of stones and build up of calculi.

I also use it in the FF I give to the chickens. I can see where it MIGHT have the same benefit for poultry.


Just a bit more about my Fermented feed portion of the program. I stopped using very large crockery jars, frankly for fear of cracking them.

I now use two 55 gal. blue plastic barrels and into both, I add a bit more than one cup of blackstrap molasses every week and stir it in. It keeps stuff brewing and smelling great.

Also add about one cup of ACV about every two weeks for each barrel.

Right or wrong..I works for my chickens' diet.

RON

 

[Arielle]

Quote: lol-- I don't work that way because studies don't work that way- studies are desiigned to prove something, not to disprove it, so to ask you to prove ACV did NOT work was not reasonable.

Perhaps your bacteria is different than mine; perhaps the minerl content of your water affects ACV different than mine.

As you tried the ACV and did not find it valuaable, then no study inthe world should convince you to use it. You already gave it a test. GOod enough.

For me it saves time as I cannot clean inside 1 qt waterers as my hands don't fit and kids argue with me ( they stll have small hands) so using a glug of vinegar, even cheap white vinegar, reduces the slime in the warm summer months. ANd saves me time and doesn't hurt the birds.

Like you I am one to question everything . . . . as I mentioned before the SOURCE of the information is more important than where you find the information.

FOr example--I question even doctors that with all their education can't know everything -- and . . . well I will point out that medical doctrs are very poorly trained in nutrition and dietitians are narrowly trained . . . so I never use them for human nutrition questions; and vets are only marginally better for animal nutrition questions. You should be seing a trend by this point . . . medicine and nutrition is not tied together . . . I would ask a homeopathic vet about vinegar though.

As for being the most misled generation-- I think it is just the opposite.

 

[thedragonlady]

Even when we had over 40 milkers, I and my wife really enjoyed hand milking them. It's therapeutic. When we milked, around 5 AM for morning shift we only spoke when we had to because that 'personal time' for us both. We also took the time to go over the udders and all parts of the goat on the stand.

RedRidge...I could be wrong but I'd bet you don't hand milk? If you did, you would have to use a 'Haz-Mat' suit...Heck, you night have to do that any how.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd just as soon cozy up to that raunchy buck as to a sheep......The funk of either has to 'wear off' since it certainly can not washed off!!!

That's what kennel coats are for. To keep the funk off ! Never go into a buck lot without wearing one.