HOA Fines

[mrsbos]

I am the treasurer for our HOA in an upscale suburban neighborhood. We have highly restrictive CCR's, so that if some people wanted to be jerks, there would be infractions all over the place. Our CCRs list acceptable pets as dogs, cats, caged birds, and tanked fish. It does not specifically prohibit chickens. My chicken coop has a caged run, and a chicken is a bird, so I personally would interpret that I am not in violation

Technically, if someone had a backyard pond with koi in it, that would be a violation since the fish wouldn't be in a tank!

Anyway, concerning fines. We have some people violating some of the CCRs to the point where many are complaining (i.e. not completing their landscaping--weeds everywhere, storing their boats in front of the house). We have the power to levy fines, but would have a hard time actually making people pay them. Just as there are some who are delinquent on their HOA dues, we can charge them all the interest we want, and send all the letters we want telling them to pay up, but unless we go so far as to put a lien on their property (which in our case requires getting an attorney), we are pretty powerless when it comes to collecting.

If you knew that chickens were prohibited, but went and got the coop and chicks anyway, hopefully you were at least considerate of your next door neighbors. I talked to all my surrounding neighbors, explained what I wanted to do, made assurances that the coop would be discreet and odor free, chickens quiet, and promised fresh eggs for sharing. No one had a problem with it. I wanted to get the blessing of the neighbors b/c though I might be able to argue my case regarding the HOA CCRs, it also happens that my chickens are not allowed due to county zoning laws, our house being in a "low density residential" zone.

If you are friends with your neighbors to the point that they won't complain about your chickens, and you keep everything tidy, hopefully you won't attract the attention of the HOA. If you do, hopefully they won't think it's worth the trouble to try and fine you. If they do fine you, you might be able to get away with just ignoring the fine, unless they threaten legal action. I can't imagine any HOA wanting to go to that much trouble unless you have lots of neighbors complaining. Be a good neighbor!

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
Two points.

1) If the HOA does not enforce its covenants, or does not enforce them uniformly (against all violators of a rule, not just the some of the people that break a specific rule), courts will likely rule that covenant void and unenforceable. Chances are that if it ever were taken to court, the chickens would be ruled in violation. However, by the same token, someone with a koi pond could claim that the pond is a stock tank, and that they are therefore not in violation.

2) On collecting overdue HOA monies: you can report their lack of payment to credit bureaus and/or you can sue in court for the amount owed, plus court and attorney fees. Having an attorney write a stern letter will get a lot of overdue monies paid. Step by step escalating the fees and pressure through more fines and letters for non-payment do have an affect. Knowing that the board is willing to forgive fees when a homeowner made a one-time late payment, or working with residents who are having trouble paying shows that the board is wanting to be fair. Have you read your state laws on HOAs? I know in Arizona both planned communities and condominiums ALREADY have a lien on the property. It is superior to all other liens except for a 1st mortgage & taxes. This is my 5th year on our board, 3rd as president.

A very diligent treasurer who wrote diplomatic letters, and called and called and negotiated made significant dents into overdue assessments. Hiring a proactive accountant who step by step escalated the fees for non paying, and sends letter after letter after letter to those who are in arrears has further reduced the outstanding assessments. Let me say we are not interested in collecting fines--quite frankly, those go directly to the accountant; when we forgive a fine, the association pays. But we DO want people to pay their assessments. We work very hard to keep our expenses as low as possible and our common areas in as good condition as possible. When one person does not pay, it impacts every person in the neighborhood--either we must raise the assessment that others will pay or we have insufficient funding to properly care for our common areas.

Oh, we do not really have the ability to fine for CC&R violations. We can assess the actual cost to repair or maintain if we give proper notice.

 

[cassie]

My rules about HOA's are simple. I avoid them like the plague. I am presently shopping for real estate and the first thing I ask the agent is if the property is governed by an HOA or covenants. If the answer is yes, that property is off my list no matter how desireable it may otherwise be. I have had all the experience with HOA's that I ever want to have. My folks lived in an upscale mobile home park in San Jose CA that was governed by an active and intrusive HOA. After my folks had to leave the park for health reasons I stayed there off and on for a while packing up and getting the place ready for sale. The HOA drove me nuts. One day they called me at my home in Stevinson, which is a two and a half hour drive from the mobile home park in San Jose, demanding that I do something at once about my mother's dog that, according to them, was being left alone at my mother's house. Supposedly the dog was barking non stop day and night, had gotten out of the yard and was wandering around the park. I told whoever it was that this must be some talented dog, because at that very moment said dog was sound asleep on my sofa. In Stevinson, not San Jose. I told them to check before reaching for the phone. If it wasn't one thing with those people it was another. It got so I wasn't even civil to them. Whenever they called I would just hang up. As for now if I ever found I was, unbeknownst to me, living on a piece of property governed by an HOA I would be listing that place for sale before the sun went down.

 

[desertdarlene]

Quote:
I think you're playing with fire if they specifically told you that chickens were not allowed. And, they probably have a copy of the e-mail you sent and their response, so it would be evidence in a court case.

However, I don't know how much power your HOA has or what state you are in. Where I live, they can foreclose on your home for excessive fines, which I think is terrible.

If you do get into trouble and you can prove that any of your neighbors have had chickens for a long time, you may have some strength in court, but you will get your neighbor in trouble, too. If you lose then everyone in that neighborhood loses, too.

 

[Princess Poppycock]

Quote:
Everything you just said, x 2.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

A lot of folks do not like HOAs, but not all of them are cut from the same cloth. Mine is very much NOT intrusive, and we have very few rules beyond what the city already requires. What rules we have are predominantly about the common areas.

Yes, in some states an HOA can foreclose over unpaid fines. Not in Arizona. The rights of the association and the homeowners need to be balanced. Too much one way or the other and it is unfair. The CC&Rs are a contract; if you do not like the terms, don't purchase.

 

[HunterWilson]

Quote:
I 100% agree with you about HOA's!

 

[bgelber]

When we where looking for our new place one of first questions was is the a HOA. Same as most if the answer was yes then we told the Realtor to strike it off the list. Well in comes our current home. No HOA, no restrictions so happy us. After closing one of our new neighbors comes and ask did we receive the rules of the neighborhood What?!

Needless to say she gave them to us, but after contacting our Realtor and attorney we where told that since we were not informed about them before the sale they could not hold us to them

Needless to say chickens where not on the list of acceptable animals, in fact no birds of any kind are suppose to be kept.

One of the neighbors kids ( can't even hear my girls ) said something earlier this fall about our birds and that they were going to contact the developer. I told him to go ahead call him, I would them say something to him about his parents running a business out of his home ( another no-no ) and about him riding his dirt bike on the road. Nothing came of it.

I hate spoiled kids

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
I'm not sure your realtor was accurate in the legal advice he/she gave. First, look up your property's deed and see if any restrictions are listed. Check the legal description as well. If you find that the property is indeed restricted or part of an HOA, you are probably bound by the terms, but you have a cause of action against the realtor and the seller for not discovering and disclosing pertinent information. Your title insurance may also provide some level of protection as that type of information routinely comes through the whole closing process.

 

[CocoNUT]

Ok...here's a question.

So the HOA has recently TRIED to start their "Cease and Desist" violation letter campaign. The letters site an "investigation" (no methods...not posted anywhere either) determining various infractions, snippets of the CCR restricting actions etc...and THREE options. The first TWO options are legalease verbiage regarding acknowledging said offense AND contractually agreeing to NEVER reoffend...and the THIRD option is to contest the "violation" and seek a hearing before the Board.

Now, let's say they've accused me of having an inoperable vehicle in my driveway. They don't specify WHICH vehicle is supposedly inoperable...but apparently MULTIPLE "investigations" have determined there to be AN inoperable vehicle present. (there isn't one by the way). Upon invoking the third option and CONTESTING their "investigation" results...they state my "option" of a hearing before the Board was sent in error! The CC&R doesn't provide for a hearing before the Board. (the SAME piece of the CCRs they referenced about a violation stated I had the option of a hearing!).

Oh...we've been threatened to have our community resource accesses revoked...(we don't have any at this point...development is incomplete - over 60% left to go- and will be for a WHILE), the only "service" our HOA provides is snow removal (joke at best)...and COLLECTING our FEES. They've threatened to FINE us...but there is NO 'assessment schedule' publically posted anywhere on any of the documents!

Oh...have I mentioned our property is POSTED NO TRESPASSING...but doesn't even HAVE to be under our state guidelines. So how is the determination being made? Oh...but a cop down the street can park his patrol car (overnight) on his front lawn cause, you know, we can't park any vehicles on the side of the road...!

Oh...we have a LOT of stay at home moms and retired people in our community...who don't take too kindly to those of us who don't think like they do...so our HOA has the POTENTIAL of being VERY bad. The HOA also does not posses the minimum of 51% of the shares (the developer does...has like 58% I think)...so anything we DO "vote" on doesn't pass unless the developer approves.)

So what's the deal there? Does the HOA have the RIGHT to threaten us with heresay investigations and legalease?