How can I tell difference between Marek's and leg injury

[Freia]

I posted about this a few days ago, and didn't get a single response, so I' trying again, but wording it differently and asking a slightly different question, and hope somebody will chime in.

Last week, my 14 week old Langshan/Brahma cross stopped using her right leg. It is not getting better, not worse, no other symptoms, poos normal, appetite normal.

She waves the leg around a bit, looking like she wants to use it, but won't put any weight on it. If I push against her leg, She does not push back at all. no resistance. No muscle response at all. If I pull on her leg to extend it, she has plenty of strength, and will pull back against me. The leg is not limp.

Since she does have strength and movement in the leg, does that indicate that it's not Marek's, or can Marek's affect only some of the leg's function?

I would love for her to join the rest of the flock (she's in the house now), as she cries for her sisters every evening when she roosts, but I don't dare take her out there in case she's contagious. Though I''m not sure what difference it makes. If she's been exposed to Marek's, so have all the others.

As for injury to the leg, I can find no breaks, and the joints aren't making any funny movements or sounds, or grinding when I extend and rotate them. I can find nothing wrong with this poor little birdie. The only injury I can imagine doing this to her is if a tendon has torn completely, rending a muscle useless.

Hoping someone can point me in the direction of either disease or injury.

 

[RobinFarmGirl]

Hello,

I made a post on a similar injury that my bantam hen had https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/864396/chicken-with-unexplained-injured-foot-or-leg-no-longer-walking-need-help. Look at my post as I included pictures of her foot. I saw no outside injuries but she limped. Then her foot looked like it wasn't "alive" anymore....

My bantam hen started out with what looked like an injured leg (like you say). She held it up and hopped around on the other leg. I brought her inside to isolate her. She was still eating & pooping normal. Then she got tired of holding herself up on that one leg so she just laid there. She eventually would not stand anymore.

I had to lift her to the food/water bowls to make sure she got food/water. Or I set her right in front of the bowls so she could eat on her own. She was like that for a month. I have her a little bit of St John's Wort every day as someone noted in my post. (I don't know if it did any good...) Eventually she started what looked like she was gasping for air - opening beak and stretching out her neck. She died shortly after that.

In my post others stated it sounded like Mereks. All you can do is isolate her so the others will not peck her and bother her and then keep her comfortable...

I hope this helps a bit.

Robin

 

[Fancychooklady]

Without a vets advice all you can do try to diagnose the problem yourself. If she is the only one effected it could be an injury but there should be some swelling or visible signs by now. Vitamin deficiency can also present these symptoms . Thiamin and riboflavin deficiency can cause muscle atrophy and lameness. Perhaps a good multivitamin in the water and isolation so that she is not further injured and just keep an eye on her.
Mareks is also a possibility but as you say there isn't much you can do about it and the rest of the flock have already been exposed. I would strongly recommend that if you lose her you take her for necropsy , at least then you will know what you are dealing with.
Here is a link on general leg issues.

https://sites.google.com/a/poultrypedia.com/poultrypedia/poultry-podiatry

 

[seminolewind]

Marek's can mimic a lot of different illnesses. You may be able to narrow it down with your flock history. Like any new birds in the past 14 weeks? Others with symptoms? Could she have injured it?

 

[Freia]

That's what I've been doing (scratching my head).

Original flock of 13 showed up on our doorstep 3.5 years ago when their owners moved out of state. Totally unknown history. Flock has always been pretty healthy. We've lost 5 production breed hens over that time frame to what appears to be EYP. Lost one 1-year-old bird last Fall to mystery-illness: she just wasted away and eventually turned yellow and died. She had been vaccinated for Mareks during incubation at the hatchery.

Over the past 2 years, I've added 6 hens and a rooster to the flock. All were vaccinated for Mareks from the hatchery.

March 1st, we hatched out our first set of chicks from our own flock. Not vaccinated. Didn't even think about (the flock is healthy, right...). It's one of these that now has the leg problem.

We live in the boonies on 10 acres. Our neighbor about 1/4 mile away also has a flock of chickens. Other flocks are within a 1 mile radius. I don't handle other peoples' chickens, but I do visit farms and feed stores, so I could very well have been contaminated at some point.

If it is Mareks, I have to assume that the whole flock has been exposed. What am I likely looking at in terms of losses of adults and juveniles? I see no reason to cull, since if they have it, my soil and air have it and will always have it. I'll be going for survival of the fittest.

All the other birds (20 of them) seem perfectly normal.

One of the adult hens does shove the juveniles off the roosts for sport, so this chick could very well have been knocked off a roost and crash-landed.

 

[Fancychooklady]

Your bird is certainly within the target age 12-24 weeks , that mareks shows up. It's not recommended to mix vaccinated birds with un vaccinated as the vaccinated birds can infect the non vac.

http://www.poultryhub.org/health/health-management/vaccination/

 

[seminolewind]

The vaccinated birds can Not infect the non vaccinated birds. The vaccine is a "sterile" or "look a like" when given alerts the body to grow antibodies to protect against Marek's. Any vaccinated bird that's quarantine for at least 2 weeks can be exposed to a positive flock and get Marek's, but will not get the symptoms or the tumors. The vaccine only protects if it has a chance to grow the protective antibodies first.
If you suspect Marek's, all additions must be vaccinated and quarantined. If not, you may get positive deadly symptoms beginning at about 6 weeks-12 weeks (average) and can be mostly up to 8 months or more.

If you hatched or bought day old chicks from a hatchery, you have a closed flock. If there are chickens from any where or any other time, you can be exposed. And the carriers may not be the first ones to contract it. On average it takes at least 6 weeks to see a chicken with symptoms.

It's good to look at chickens from elsewhere that were added at least 6 weeks before up to about 8 months most likely. They are the ones that can be your "Typhoid Mary".

You do not need all the symptoms of Marek's. Or they can be different. You read about the classic symptoms but there are more. Adults usually waste. Chicks usually get paralysis.

Remember that I use usually, might, some, average, most likely, in my reply because Marek's does not follow many rules. To be sure, the cheapest way to test is to call Texas A&M, get directions on how to send blood , and have your vet draw and send it or you can send it with the form they have on line. I will be doing this since my hen tested negative for Marek's when I am 90% sure my flock has it.

At the bottom of my posts read The Big Marek's FAQ, it was written by Nambroth who is immersed in studying and discussing Marek's with researchers and is as far knowledgeable as have met.

 

[Fancychooklady]

If the vaccinated bird has been exposed to MD the disease will not progress to the ' tumor ' stage but that bird will shed the disease in its dander for the duration of its life, therefore leaving any unvaccinated birds susceptible . Our avian vet advises us that when it comes to vaccinations , it's all or none.

 

[Freia]

I keep reading how when chicks are vaccinated, they then need to be quarantined for 2 weeks, so that they don't get exposed to the virus before the vaccine takes effect.

How does one do this in practical terms? My chicks hatch under a broody mom, who raises them. Even if I take broody and her eggs and bring into a clean box inside the house while they hatch and until they're 2 weeks old, the chciks still are exposed right? Because I have to assume that mom has the virus on her skin, dander, and feathers, so she would immediately be infecting the chicks.

Even if I culled my whole flock (not gonna happen, just theoretical question here), as I brought in vaccinated, quarantined new chicks, they would then pick up the virus from our soil, air, coop, etc and become carriers. then the next time I try to have a "new", vaccinated hen hatch out chicks, they would again be infected by their mom, who would have it all over her body even though she's vaccinated. Almost seems like I just have to count on many chicks dying if I do indeed have Marek's. What am I missing?

 

[Fancychooklady]

It is a difficult situation you find yourself in. If the momma hen has been exposed there will be the risk that you will lose chicks to MD. Above all you should be running a ' closed flock '. From what I've read if you want to replenish your flock , the best way to do that would be to hatch eggs in the incubator, vaccinate and reintroduce to the flock at 5 months of age. That just wouldn't be practical for most small holders. If it were me , I would be taking any mortalities to the vet for testing because I'd rather know , one way or the other.
Perhaps you could PM nambroth and discuss it with her on a one to one basis.
I found this article made it all a little easier to understand as she has an understanding of the emotional and scientific sides of the argument .

http://www.swpoultry.com/CindySite/vaccination.html