I have to talk POLISH!

[ultra1classic]

Quote:
Good question. I was dumbfounded when I saw that last night.Come to think of it I still am.

I think what was trying to be said is that more people need to sit on the colors that are already there and work on those, as opposed to trying to create more new "fad" colors. The tolbunt is a beautiful color, it is not yet recognized right? More people need to work on getting this color true and recognized. To recognize a color you need atleast 5 breeders, 5 years of breeding records, and X number of birds over those 5 years and show birds as AOV. There is also the frizzled polish and the color varieties there in the frizzled variety, these need working on. Cuckoo is another color that still needs more good solid breeders out there.

Sportsterjeep : I agree there are so many new colors and mutt colors out there and they are just being tossed out as they go, eggs and chicks and adults sold left and right, SQ,BQ,PQ - everything. I agree if your going to be a breeder, do it right and cull hard, get yourself good birds, don't sell junk and don't sell from birds that produce much junk. However I see nothing wrong with selling or giving culls away to someone who 1. is just a backyard owner and wants a pretty flock of colorful birds, or to someone who will eat the culls. I do this, I sell off my culls to people who will eat them, or to a few friends who just have them as pets.

you can't group everybody working on new colors into one category...some of us do it responseably...sportster (Jeremy) and i have been working together for the past couple of years...i'm sure he wold tell you there are not many out there that cull harder or are more picky about what birds make it to my flock...i have no problem selling pets to backyard flocks but i also have no problem old school culling...many of the old time polish breeders don't even mess with frizzles, i personally like them...this month was the first time i offered polish eggs to anyone after 4 years of breeding them...i honestly didn't want to sell that batch but i have to shut my bator down for maintenance and instead of eating the eggs i thought my birds were at the point they could help improve somebody's flock..i agree many lines of cuckoo still need a lot of work...

eta: sorry for any grammar issues..darn droid likes to make up words

 

[Illia]

Quote:
I'd believe or at least hope all of them. Remember, one big reason why Tolbunts aren't so common or commonly found for sale is because most of them have poor fertility and vigor. One can hear of sad endings to even the most appearingly healthy birds all the time, or simply sad fertility, or poor egg production, or products like crooked toes, beaks, etc. It's one of the reasons people cross Tolbunts out to others like gold laced and the sort. From my experience of what I see, color itself is actually not as often the focus of someone's Tolbunt program. Some people don't mind the excess white. And some people don't have other issues as much as someone else may have. I have to work on type much more than, say, Gretchen does.

Just a last little note on fad colors - I'm aware there's still very dedicated breeders and make thanks to them all the time. I think there's a great number of Lav Ameraucanas out there who definitely show progress and dedication as well as a good number of breeders who've been working hard on Orpingtons. I don't mean to group all Lav owners into one label, I just mean to point out how much isn't going anywhere.

And, I do certainly believe and do take part in the act of culling/killing. I sold some Tolbunt splits to someone before, but that's because they asked for just a handful of random chickens, whatever I had, so I sold some of them with a mix. The person offered a rooster back because they didn't want Polish anymore, and were looking to replace the rooster with a non-Polish.

 

[seminolewind]

As for selling culls to backyard pet owners-I really don't see that happening here. The last person that offered me a cull rooster-well I bought and sent her the mailing box and that was the last I heard from her. She still has my box, and it's been over 3 months. So I can't even find a cull.

 

[ultra1classic]

Quote:
You're comparing a winter-season mixed breeding with fad colors? Yes I plan to continue with mixed birds that have Tolbunt in their genes, but, I'm not introducing it to a new breed nor looking for $$ for it. And, I am still doing Tolbunt Polish. Which is an already-existing needs to be worked on color. reply: why the heck not. What's wrong with having some fun?

I understand the confusion and the belief that I may be doing something hypocritical but I'm simply offering an idea, a mutt-type one with serious variants at that, and not starting off with a high or even moderate price, - And still, not wasting it on birds I could instead use for a useful project. A male Polish of a color who can use some serious work can do two breedings at once

And I'm not even hatching anything for myself right now, I'm merely offering what mutts will come out of the temporary phase my flock is in.

If anything I'm giving someone a chance to have fun with some colored eggs AND colored birds. Nothing more, really.

Illia, I totally agree. Most of what I have are purebreds that I love-not purebreds I intend on breeding, improving, culling, breeding, etc. I have Blue Jerseys from top bloodlines and have no intention of doing anything except hatch some eggs for myself, and maybe sell a few.

There are some of us who have different goals other than improving a breed or making a profit. There are some people like me who would be ecstatic to have a Tolbunt (cull) just to have one with no intension of breeding to improve breed, or selling eggs. Just as I have pet quality dogs that I love and cherish. Just like my top bloodlines Tennessee Walking Horse who is not show quality, but still does her famous walk, but not like you see at the shows all stacked up. My only goal would be how , for example, how a Tolbunt color expresses in any of my other Polish, which is fine with me, I don't sell chickens, they are for my benefit only. And I don't cull for anything but illness-I just can't. So I would make a poor breeder.

One other point: I've been reading the thread on the silkie-haired Ameraucanas. Seems to be alot of problems with poor hatches, health problems , and puny or fragile birds. Probably some of the same problems with Tolbunts or any purebred. How many Tolbunt or any purebred breeders are out there that are striving to have healthy robust birds over a color?

ETA: Common sense kicked in...i'll just bite my tongue Seminole

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
You may sound hypocritical to some, but I fully understand what you're saying. You can do both. Why not?
Someone on another thread asked why not try breeding mottled houdans to Tolbunts. That sounds like something I would try. Just to see, and if it looks promising , to share the information with serious breeders - that would be my contribution to the breed.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
Illia, I totally agree. Most of what I have are purebreds that I love-not purebreds I intend on breeding, improving, culling, breeding, etc. I have Blue Jerseys from top bloodlines and have no intention of doing anything except hatch some eggs for myself, and maybe sell a few.

There are some of us who have different goals other than improving a breed or making a profit. There are some people like me who would be ecstatic to have a Tolbunt (cull) just to have one with no intension of breeding to improve breed, or selling eggs. Just as I have pet quality dogs that I love and cherish. Just like my top bloodlines Tennessee Walking Horse who is not show quality, but still does her famous walk, but not like you see at the shows all stacked up. My only goal would be how , for example, how a Tolbunt color expresses in any of my other Polish, which is fine with me, I don't sell chickens, they are for my benefit only. And I don't cull for anything but illness-I just can't. So I would make a poor breeder.

One other point: I've been reading the thread on the silkie-haired Ameraucanas. Seems to be alot of problems with poor hatches, health problems , and puny or fragile birds. Probably some of the same problems with Tolbunts or any purebred. How many Tolbunt or any purebred breeders are out there that are striving to have healthy robust birds over a color?

ETA: Common sense kicked in...i'll just bite my tongue Seminole

No need to bite your tongue. Everyone has different goals, and should be sharing their opinions without making others feel criticised. I understand what you and Sportster and Jeremy do, and although I would not, I respect the dedication you all have at this .

 

[welasharon]

Quote:
ETA: Common sense kicked in...i'll just bite my tongue Seminole

No need to bite your tongue. Everyone has different goals, and should be sharing their opinions without making others feel criticised. I understand what you and Sportster and Jeremy do, and although I would not, I respect the dedication you all have at this .

I too had a devil of a time finding tolbunt...wanted someone's culls as I don't particularly want to breed to any degree. I would up lucking up on someone else's misfortune and acquired a pair. I already had 3 GL polish then this summer I lucked into two GLxtolbunts (a pair). Now, what to do? After much agonizing I have decided to do what suits me. I don't intend to be a big breeder of polish of any kind but also would hate for mine to die out unused. I saw, today, my tolbunt hen sitting in the nest box so hopefully she is getting serious finally. I am going to repay the lady I got them from so she can have a restart and then I am going to enjoy myself and see what happens. I am glad there are serious breeders out there...I just would not have the time nor interest in doing that heavily.
sharon

 

[ultra1classic]

Quote:
No need to bite your tongue. Everyone has different goals, and should be sharing their opinions without making others feel criticised. I understand what you and Sportster and Jeremy do, and although I would not, I respect the dedication you all have at this .

I too had a devil of a time finding tolbunt...wanted someone's culls as I don't particularly want to breed to any degree. I would up lucking up on someone else's misfortune and acquired a pair. I already had 3 GL polish then this summer I lucked into two GLxtolbunts (a pair). Now, what to do? After much agonizing I have decided to do what suits me. I don't intend to be a big breeder of polish of any kind but also would hate for mine to die out unused. I saw, today, my tolbunt hen sitting in the nest box so hopefully she is getting serious finally. I am going to repay the lady I got them from so she can have a restart and then I am going to enjoy myself and see what happens. I am glad there are serious breeders out there...I just would not have the time nor interest in doing that heavily.
sharon

nobody seems to have a solid grasp on the tolbunt...kind of the appeal of it besides the obvious beauty of the color...the biggest immediate opportunity seems to be breed outsourcing just to expand gene pool to first improve survival rate so you actually have a nice size group to be able to start to cull from.

most folks don't want to pay 65-75 bucks to ship a pet bird...that's one of the reasons you don't see culls listed in auctions..probably better chance on Craiglist

 

[Illia]

I'm just throwing this out there, but I think this is what a lot of people disagree with though. If you're gonna take a rare, needs-improvement color or breed and fiddle with it with no knowledge of genetics to know how it will end up and possibly consider it breeding progress, that's, sorry, not something I agree with. Tolbunts and Houdans both have mottling, it's a gene that makes the white markings. But, - Houdans are solid extended black with mottling. Tolbunts are gold laced, a very complicated collection of genes, and mottling. Crossing Houdan in does require many generations to get back to proper lacing while also looking for a lack of the 5th toe, lack of the huge wattles found on many Houdans, as well as other issues like type. Though most Houdans have been hatchery-bred to look little like the standard asks, they're still different from Polish in type.


Now, I agree, doing projects for fun is of course a right and I see no problem with that, I just hope people understand that their fun projects shouldn't be labelled or confused with the hard work of a true-to-type breed or color.

So to clear up any confusion, people can do whatever, yes, but my opinion is that if you're gonna have fun, just don't do it in a way that someone may confuse your fun project with the real thing. (by that I mean the thing your project is based from or your project might resemble in appearance) I'm doing fun colored EE's but I'm clearly stating that's what it is - mutts with no predictability in breeding unless of course I or the future owner knows what they're doing and breeds for a bigger goal. If anyone's truly curious, I used Tolbunt Polish in this project because no other laced breed will keep the blue egg color (not turn it green) and my Polish truly are hardy buggers, very friendly, and super foragers. I'd do laced Polish instead if I could, but, I only have laced girls and they're being used for actual Tolbunt Polish breeding.


But anyway, I think we need to get back to some friendly 'ol Polish general chatter.

 

[josh44]

All this color crossing and trying to make new colors is getting crazy.
Back in the day making new breeds and Colors was fun and a way to pass time challenging yourself to make something new that you can enjoy the finished product and show it at a fair for everyone to see your creation, but now a days to find someone that finishes a breeding project is rare, most are out to make a buck.

I'll admit I've toyed around witha few new color projects but ended up killing them off.

Wasn't worth it I wasn't happy with the results for one, and two because just as soon as a new color is created you have someone trying to cross it up and make a newer color.

I'm sure most will agree that too many other colors and breeds need preserving.

if people want a rare color and want preserve polish id try
gold laced, silver laced, bearded whites pure chocolates and khakis.

the laced colors are among the hardest to get right, and will give you a challenge if that's what your looking for.
Khakis and chocates are rare as well most of them were destroyed when crossed up with cuckoos to make chocolate and khaki cuckoo

Ive only ever met 3 if not 4 breeders with pure chocolates / khakis the rest have a cuckoo outcross

Bearded whites are also very, very rare only know 3 or so breeders in the US.
That have whites that can actually be called polish. Most people won't even touch a white bird beacuse the fact is white birds are hard to keep white. Plus any good whites that exist are all closely related and fertility might be a problem in the near future. The same goes for the laced polish.

As for tolbunts I find them interesting but there's to my understanding
2 diff standards or ways to get Tolbunt so they will never get accepted unless breeder agree on a standard
Plus there aren't many to go around also they're very interbred missing toenails is common In Tolbunts .

If you decide to work with polish please consider these varieties
Silver laced,
Gold laced,
Wc Khaki,
Wc chocolate,
Bearded whites.
They need preserving,