I just found a dead hen

[mdees88]

Not trying to be harsh or guilt-tripping or impolite, but I strongly disagree. I find it wrong that we treat animals who are making food for us in that way, just because it is cheap. If we treat animals we owe thanks to like that, how does that define us? Who do we think we are, to choose our own profit over the ones we are making it off of?
Do take this with a grain of salt. I, when I feel strongly about things, often am a little to harsh in my point-making.

Hey that's perfectly fine, you most certainly can disagree. I like having open conversations expressing differing opinions, whether we agree or not. It's the best way to hear both sides of the argument and formulate a conclusion for yourself.

What I don't like is when people think their way is the only way, talk down to you in a condescending manner, and try and shame people who do things differently than them... (not talking about you)

I like to offer fact based opinions based off my own personal first hand experiences or what I have learned through countless hours of research online and then let whomever I am responding to do whatever they want. Who am I to judge them? Did someone appoint me the moral authority when it comes to raising quail? I think not...

It did not take me long to see that some people on here tend to be overly critical when people do things they do not do or personally agree with. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and they most certainly have the right to share them. But it's HOW they share them that will dictate whether they are actually able to influence anyone to change their opinion on the matter....

I was curious what you referring to when you said "I find it wrong that we treat animals who are making food for us in that way" I guess you were referring to when I said I have kept them at 2 birds per square foot on wire floors, properly fed, properly watered, in a pristine, clean environment, out of the elements and away from predators?

For the record, not that it even matters, my birds are currently kept at.... 12 in 15 sq ft, 13 in 15 Sq ft, 25 3 week olds in 15 sq ft, 19 3 week olds in 15 Sq ft, and 3 in 7.5 Sq ft.

Does my character or moral compass come into question based whether or not I keep my quail above or below the 1 sq ft per bird recommendation? According to some on this thread it does.... and that's absolutely ludicrous.... in my opinion.

I want my quail to have good, stress free lives but first and foremost my quail are not pets, they are livestock. Even still I give my quail sand baths, meal worms, vegetable scraps, and I physically handle the ones that don't mind being handled several times a week. That is all part of me wanting them to have a "good" life even though it will be a short one. At the end of the day my job is to provide them food, water, shelter, security, and a clean, peaceful living environment.

One day I will be face to face with my creator in judgment and I will happily stand on my record of how I've treated my quail.

What other people think about how I conduct my business is truly irrelevant... it's between me and God.

my $.02

 

[John Sanders]

Hey that's perfectly fine, you most certainly can disagree. I like having open conversations expressing differing opinions, whether we agree or not. It's the best way to hear both sides of the argument and formulate a conclusion for yourself.

What I don't like is when people think their way is the only way, talk down to you in a condescending manner, and try and shame people who do things differently than them... (not talking about you)

I like to offer fact based opinions based off my own personal first hand experiences or what I have learned through countless hours of research online and then let whomever I am responding to do whatever they want. Who am I to judge them? Did someone appoint me the moral authority when it comes to raising quail? I think not...

It did not take me long to see that quite a few people on here tend to be overly critical when people do things they do not do or personally agree with. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and they most certainly have the right to share them. But it's HOW they share them that will dictate whether they are actually able to influence anyone to change their opinion on the matter....

I was curious what you referring to when you said "treat them like that?" I guess you were referring to when I said I have kept them at 2 birds per square foot on wire floors, properly fed, properly watered, in a pristine, clean environment, out of the elements and away from predators?

For the record, not that it even matters, my birds are currently kept at.... 12 in 15 sq ft, 13 in 15 Sq ft, 25 3 week olds in 15 sq ft, 19 3 week olds in 15 Sq ft, and 3 in 7.5 Sq ft.

Does my character or moral compass come into question based whether or not I keep my quail above or below the 1 sq ft per bird recommendation? According to some on this thread it does.... and that's absolutely ludicrous.... in my opinion.

I want my quail to have good, stress free lives but first and foremost my quail are not pets, they are livestock. Even still I give my quail sand baths, meal worms, vegetable scraps, and I physically handle the ones that don't mind being handled several times a week. That is all part of me wanting them to have a "good" life even though it will be a short one. At the end of the day my job is to provide them food, water, shelter, security, and a clean, peaceful living environment.

One day I will be face to face with my creator in judgment I will happily stand on my record of how I've treated my quail.

What other people think about how I conduct my business is truly irrelevant... it's between me and God.

my $.02

You and I think alike. Definitely. Thanks

 

[le_bwah]

Sure they do. You can tell when an animal is in discomfort or pain. BTW, this was a temporary situation. I was in the process of finishing their pens.

I wish I was in a position to judge others. All you guys that are usually here answering questions, thank you very much.

Glad it's temporary. But sick of people scoffing at the notion that some practices are objectively more humane than others. We can absolutely hold each other accountable for the way we treat vulnerable creatures—the "only God can judge me" excuse is gross.

 

[mdees88]

We can absolutely hold each other accountable for the way we treat vulnerable creatures—the "only God can judge me" excuse is gross.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I'll leave that at that but can you not see the blatant hypocracy in what you're saying?

But sick of people scoffing at the notion that some practices are objectively more humane than others.

That is exactly what you did right here....

There are objectively more humane ways to raise them, but you don't seem to care much about being humane

 

[le_bwah]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I'll leave that at that but can you not see the blatant hypocracy in what you're saying?



That is exactly what you did right here....

Hypocrisy? If you believe what you say, you won't mind pointing out the part that seems contradictory to you. What I wrote comports just fine. People scoff at the notion that there are good and bad ways to raise animals AND OP seems worryingly lax regarding the difference.

 

[TheOddOneOut]

I was curious what you referring to when you said "I find it wrong that we treat animals who are making food for us in that way" I guess you were referring to when I said I have kept them at 2 birds per square foot on wire floors, properly fed, properly watered, in a pristine, clean environment, out of the elements and away from predators?

I think I went a little off topic there. I think I was more referring to the large scale meat and egg industry, and how some people treat animals in the same way even when they have the room and money to treat them much better than that. I wasn't referring to you in that sentence.
I do like discussions, but let's not be too snarky.

 

[TheOddOneOut]

Hypocrisy? If you believe what you say, you won't mind pointing out the part that seems contradictory to you. What I wrote comports just fine. People scoff at the notion that there are good and bad ways to raise animals AND OP seems worryingly lax regarding the difference.

x2, for the most part.

 

[FloorCandy]

I think we need to keep in mind that some people have pets and some have livestock, and we need to respect the positions of others on a public forum. It isn’t snark to ask someone judging you to explain their position. You can’t lob insults and judgement at people and not expect to be asked to elaborate. We should consider the stones we cast, because most of us have eaten poultry and eggs that aren’t free ranged, even when we could afford better, and I promise you that there are people out there that will treat you like you just donated to a puppy mill because you bought chicken from many popular companies that are considered cruel. Closing your eyes to the position of others because you are so certain of your superiority prevents an equitable sharing of knowledge. If you really think someone is wrong, it is your duty if you really feel strongly about your cause, to help that person understand your side, and lobbing insults is not the way to do that it only causes animosity.

 

[le_bwah]

I think we need to keep in mind that some people have pets and some have livestock, and we need to respect the positions of others on a public forum. It isn’t snark to ask someone judging you to explain their position. You can’t lob insults and judgement at people and not expect to be asked to elaborate. We should consider the stones we cast, because most of us have eaten poultry and eggs that aren’t free ranged, even when we could afford better, and I promise you that there are people out there that will treat you like you just donated to a puppy mill because you bought chicken from many popular companies that are considered cruel. Closing your eyes to the position of others because you are so certain of your superiority prevents an equitable sharing of knowledge. If you really think someone is wrong, it is your duty if you really feel strongly about your cause, to help that person understand your side, and lobbing insults is not the way to do that it only causes animosity.

There's a big difference between the livestock we buy pre-slaughtered and the kind we raise in our backyards. We have little control over how the first kind lives and dies. We have complete control over the second kind. Unless one is literally raising animals to put their family's next meal on the table, there is no excuse for not doing the most when it comes to providing for one's animals, livestock or otherwise.

I've met people—through my local Craigslist and on BYC—who genuinely didn't know there are different, usually better ways of raising animals. There's only so much you can do for people who are presented with a kinder option and, having the ability to choose that option, don't (recognizing that not everyone has access to materials/space).

 

[mdees88]

I think I went a little off topic there. I think I was more referring to the large scale meat and egg industry, and how some people treat animals in the same way even when they have the room and money to treat them much better than that. I wasn't referring to you in that sentence.
I do like discussions, but let's not be too snarky.

Coming off "snarky" was not my intention (hey, I like that word). You said you strongly disagreed with what I posted. I had no idea you were referring to the commercial egg and meat industry and not me. This is why I asked you what you were referring to when you said "Treat them like that". I assumed you were talking about how I treat my quail.

Hypocrisy? If you believe what you say, you won't mind pointing out the part that seems contradictory to you. What I wrote comports just fine. People scoff at the notion that there are good and bad ways to raise animals AND OP seems worryingly lax regarding the difference.

Yeah, I did misread what you said, I apologize. I thought you said "I can't stand it when people mock others for how they raise their quail", then you mocked the OP for how he raises his quail.... I read it again and see what you were saying now. Though I disagree that it is "inhumane" to raise quail 2sq ft per bird on wire floors. I believe it is unnatural, but not inhumane..... just my opinion.