I think I found a miracle cure for feather picking

[equius]

Debbz,

I am not offended by your points, in fact I am going to suggest to the Frank's, the owners of Forco, that they package and label Forco to be sold to Avians, chickens included as you suggest. What segments of the market a company focuses on is often a result of their perception of what the market is and how much they might sell. As a matter of fact I think the poultry market might be a good place for us to be. If we do that all we will do is change the label, not the composition of the product, I guess that would solve your objection to it being marked or used "off Label", and all we would have to do is print a new label. Great idea I think!

By the way, Forco is not species specific it will help the digestion of any being with a microbial population in it's digestion system. I would hate to think of what would happen if cockroaches have microbes in their gut and got a hold of some Forco. That's the stuff of horror movies " The Forco fed cockroaches from hell".

Generally speaking the term "Off label" is used mostly with respect to drugs, and Forco is not a drug. An excellent example of this is the use of Polyglycan to alleviate arthritic conditions in horses. Polyglycan was developed as a lavage for equine joints at the end of surgical procedures just before the joint capsule is closed. What a number of Veterinarians, including mine, have found is, when it is injected IV into a horse it seems to travel through the blood stream and finds areas where there are arthritic changes and "lubes them up" so to speak, relieving the horses pain. There have been no big studies on it that I know of, there is a large body of anecdotal evidence that it is helpful. My personal experience is, it is a great help for old horses or horses that are arthritic because they were started too young. We use it on my wife's horse and it has turned a creaky old lady (the horse not Cindy) into a virtual teenager. Based on your post I would assume if that happened in Australia the ACCC would be right on top of it and require exhaustive tests to assure it was safe and effective, all the while protecting its competitors products and markets. That being the case a lot of Australian horses would continue to needlessly suffer, at least in my view. We don't do it that way here.

I'm not quite sure how we would conduct the trial you suggest. What would be the criteria? Who would be selected to participate in the trial? Americans, being the opportunists they are, might agree to risk their chickens lives just to get some free Forco to see if it worked. I think under the right circumstances we might be open to your idea and suggestions of how to do it are welcome. In the meantime since "Unlike animal drugs, animal feed does not have to be approved by FDA before it can be marketed." I like your idea of "repackaging and re-branding it as a legitimate poultry product" especially since no approvals are required. Again, great idea, thanks.

With respect to your comments on advertising and pricing, it was a newbie mistake, I'll try not to let it happen again. I assume,like you, most Australians are sticklers for the rules except of course those who were originally sent there because they broke the rules in England. (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist, it was just meant to be humorous not derogatory)

azygous

Thank you

Good night, it's past my bed time.

Jim Rea

 

[Debbz]

And this is the USA. We use products all the time for purposes other than what they've been originally been designated. There's no law against it as far as I know. As for Forco "publicly promoting off-label use", they are doing no such thing, I assure you. That is something you have come up with out of your own wild imagination.

Yes azygous, I've read the whole thread. Please take an objective look at the words "publicly promoting off-label use" which you say has not happened here and comes "out of [my] own wild imagination".

"publicly" - there's nothing more public than a worldwide public internet forum
"promoting" - the product has been heavily defended on this thread many times as being suitable for poultry with "recommended dosages", prices and where to buy it given by the distributor. Anyone who questions enthusiasm for the product is has often been dismissed and the distributor responds with the likes of "Holy Smoke!" etc. (However, I didn't know you'd invited Jim to give advice on the thread, and yes, some of the information given has been just informational.)
"off-label use" - is there anywhere on the label saying it's for laying hens? No? Then the recommended dosages and uses suggested are off-label.

You are the thread owner, I've had my say and should probably just back out of this discussion now.

 

[Debbz]

Oh dear, I have just posted my last reply without seeing that Jim has put something on which I haven't read yet, so some of what I have said may not follow his post. I'm rushing to an appointment and will read your post Jim when I'm back. It looks long and deserving of some time in reading properly. Deb.

 

[chickiemomy]

BTW - veterinarians are now using polyglycan for dogs as well as horses. My dog is getting injections & it does help.

w/respect to animal medicine - I had carpal tunnel some years ago & visited a hand surgeon. He noticed I was taking glucosamine & chondriotin and asked rather mockingly if I thought they helped. I replied that I did not know for sure, as my arthritis is quite variable from day to day, but my dog was taking them, & I KNOW if helped her. He laughed and said "Vets know! - there isn't a race horse in the country that isn't taking glucosamine on a daily basis." And then he said, "I take it too" He was just testing my reaction - and he laughed & winked.

w/respect to the FDA & animal food - I also agree with a previous statement that someone made - the FDA is not proactive w/respect to pet food. do you all recall the melamine that had been added to dog, or was it cat food a few years ago. A bunch of pets died from sudden renal failure. The contaminant came from an ingredient recently sourced from China. The brands that were impacted were high quality brands, in use by vet offices for treating sick boarded animals. Shortly after, we heard of melamine as a contaminant in baby formula in China.

Most supplements are considered - generally safe - nothing in your local supplement store is FDA approved, or regulated... you must do your own research, trust whatever brand you trust & decide for yourself. Occasionally we hear that this or that has a bad reaction if you overdo - or don't mix well with other drugs. Rarely something is taken off - I can think of some OTC diet drugs that have been taken off market, after many years of sales. A few people had heart problems related to taking them.

Testing of new drugs is different, because they test to see if statements of efficacy are true. So for example you can sell St John's Wort because it is considered safe and it is considered safe because there has not been a group of people who are taking it become seriously ill. But the manufacturer cannot say St Johns Wort will CURE anything. I think the limit they can say is something along the lines of 'may be effective, or thought to help memory'.

Testing of drugs is often done cross species. The prescription drugs you take are tested on all types of organisms, before the testing reaches the level of drug trials and people are involved. But again, that is to test efficacy - will this drug lower blood pressure, prevent heart attacks -- and to test side effects -- will it help arthritis, but cause more heart problems - many NSAIDS fall in that category - but we take them anyway because we'll take the risk of heart disease over daily pain. Everything you take has risks.

But back to supplements. Many of us do give our little chickens medicated feed, at least to start - and I wonder what that might do to their intestinal & probiotic health.

This is from the Mayo Clinic website http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/probiotics/AN00389


Is it important to include probiotics and prebiotics in a healthy diet?

Answer

from Katherine Zeratsky, R.D., L.D.

You don't necessarily need probiotics — a type of "good" bacteria — to be healthy. However, these microorganisms may help with digestion and offer protection from harmful bacteria, just as the existing "good" bacteria in your body already do.
Prebiotics are nondigestible carbohydrates that act as food for probiotics. When probiotics and prebiotics are combined, they form a synbiotic. Fermented dairy products, such as yogurt and kefir, are considered synbiotic because they contain live bacteria and the fuel they need to thrive.
Probiotics are found in foods such as yogurt, while prebiotics are found in whole grains, bananas, onions, garlic, honey and artichokes. In addition, probiotics and prebiotics are added to some foods and available as dietary supplements.
Although more research is needed, there's encouraging evidence that probiotics may help:

• Treat diarrhea, especially following treatment with certain antibiotics
• Prevent and treat vaginal yeast infections and urinary tract infections
• Treat irritable bowel syndrome
• Reduce bladder cancer recurrence
• Speed treatment of certain intestinal infections
• Prevent and treat eczema in children
• Prevent or reduce the severity of colds and flu

Side effects are rare, and most healthy adults can safely add foods that contain prebiotics and probiotics to their diet. If you're considering taking supplements, check with your doctor to be sure that they're right for you.
Sorry for the length of this post - but I think with the above, you may be able to see that it is doubtful the FDA would have any qualms about us giving prebiotics to our chickens and eating their eggs. If you still don't feel comfortable - then don't give it to your chickens - I'm glad someone thought about this and shared his experience. I'm also glad that Jim has had the patience to explain the product, in spite of some of the, let's face it, kinda rude stuff being posted..
Can't we agree to disagree - I don't know if Forco is a miracle supplement, but I sincerely doubt a prebiotic will hurt either them or me -- what you believe doesn't change my mind - I'm going to give it a try & see if it helps reduce my chickies' feather loss, which currently seems a bit too much to be healthy. And I'll risk the minor possibility of an adverse reaction for the possible favorable outcome of healthier chicks. 'nuff said??
What's the argument??

 

[Debbz]

Debbz,
I am not offended by your points, in fact I am going to suggest to the Frank's, the owners of Forco, that they package and label Forco to be sold to Avians, chickens included as you suggest..... As a matter of fact I think the poultry market might be a good place for us to be..... and all we would have to do is print a new label. Great idea I think!

That sounds like a good move Jim. Customer qualms about off-label use would disappear and it would show customers you have done enough investigation and testing to be confident it is suitable for poultry and eggs for human consumption, unlike horses and bulls.

..... Polyglycan to alleviate arthritic conditions in horses..... developed as a lavage for equine joints.... relieving the horses pain.... a large body of anecdotal evidence that it is helpful.... Based on your post I would assume if that happened in Australia the ACCC would be right on top of it and require exhaustive tests to assure it was safe and effective, all the while protecting its competitors products and markets.... That being the case a lot of Australian horses would continue to needlessly suffer, at least in my view. We don't do it that way here.

Sorry I didn't explain the role of the ACCC. It's a government body that ensures fair competition between businesses, investigates product quality and marketing claims, protects consumer rights and enforces consumer laws. Their interest I'm guessing would be in the accuracy of product claims which involve anything for human consumption. Horses, probably no problem.

I'm not quite sure how we would conduct the trial you suggest. What would be the criteria? Who would be selected to participate in the trial? Americans, being the opportunists they are, might agree to risk their chickens lives just to get some free Forco to see if it worked. I think under the right circumstances we might be open to your idea and suggestions of how to do it are welcome. In the meantime since "Unlike animal drugs, animal feed does not have to be approved by FDA before it can be marketed." I like your idea of "repackaging and re-branding it as a legitimate poultry product" especially since no approvals are required. Again, great idea, thanks.

It would be great if repackaging it was that straightforward. The only thing might be the difference between using it on animals for human consumption VS horses that are not eaten. But you may be right that there is no problem because of the nature of the product. I'm surprised that Forco doesn't see something like a product trial as a big opportunity. Surely it's an agricultural or backyard chicken news story that initial anecdotal reports of improvements in xyz have prompted a trial, or whatever other truthful interest-based story there may be in it. Any chicken owner's ears would prick at the mention of such a thing, and it would give Forco some legitimate exposure, as well as signalling that it may well soon be officially available for poultry. As in the article posted by Chickiemomy, you can probably only legally claim things like "it MAY BE beneficial for" xyz at the moment, but after a trial you could say "Our trials showed" xyz, publicly and on the label. You'd have to formulate a trial and criteria yourself. Obviously a small trial with people screened for suitability, with their agreement to record before, during and after observations accurately over a certain period, backed up by either an experienced researcher or maybe a vet. I think you'd find people who are interested in participating because of genuine interest in their chickens' health rather than $'s, although it seems fair to provide the product for them to test don't you think?. There are a few good potential trial participants contributing here for a start.

.....I assume,like you, most Australians are sticklers for the rules except of course those who were originally sent there because they broke the rules in England.
Who'd want to live in pommy-land anyway? The best thing they did for us convicts was to send us over here.

Thanks for your considered comments Jim. A vigorous and useful discussion.

 

[azygous]

Thanks to everyone for steering this thread back to a very productive track! Such terrific questions and ideas and amazing information!

 

[equius]

Debbz

Thanks for your comments.

Jim

 

[FireTigeris]

OK, here I go again:

FireTigeris

A pretty logical question, if you read carefully it says the fungal cultures and digestive enzymes are used in the production of Forco, perhaps we could make that a little clearer. Fungal cultures excrete prolific quantities of cellulite and other enzymes that are used in Forco. The excreted products are what is used in Forco not the fungal culture or the medium it grows on, which are separated from the excreted cellulite and other products which are actually used in Forco. Did I say that clearly enough, sometimes late at night I'm a little fuzzy?

Mavrik

<SNIP>

I think it's pretty easy to be overly fearful of most everything in our lives. If we eat only organic, or only organic vegetarian we still run the risk of salmonella and a myriad of other diseases, conditions and opportunity's for injury. Come on, get up get out take a chance. If you don't want to take a chance on Forco that's ok, but someday all your chickens will die and someday all of us will die, it has always given me great comfort that "life is a sexually transmitted condition that's 100% fatal". God, lets live a little.

Thanks for the soap box.

Jim Rea

Quote: Ok, thanks, the wording used on the website is not well chosen.

'FOCO (r) FEED SUPPLEMENT is produced using highly effective fungal cultures and digestive enzymes.'

would be the simple rearrangement you may also if you wish at that point combine the 'this formula' sentence with that new sentence for better flow.

To people that are suggesting a feed trial, the problem is laboratory/control conditions for a study cannot be met, everyone would have to have the same breed of bird, from the same supplier, the same age and a narrow range of weights- then they would have to have climate control, parasite control, and exactly the same amount of food, FORCO, daylight, added artificial light and other reasonable stresses.

Then a suitable test would have to be developed to monitor the birds, will we use weight vs age, weight vs wingspan, number of feathers per square inch of bird on the (name of body part), number of sneezes in lifetime, lifetime age (longitivity), %fat around liver, Number of eggs produced in first laying year, time of first lay, laying over lifetime, capacity of lungs post mortum...?

I could actually write up such a thing but who's going to want to bother with all of that???

 

[equius]

FireTigeris

Thanks for your reply, I have passed your suggestions on to the owners of Forco.

With respect to the trial I think your points are well taken. A trial could turn into an academic excercise that might influence a a very small number of people and would result in a huge amount of work for the people involved in the test. I think it's pretty easy to call for a test until the people who volunteered find out what is entailed.

I suspect that's not a good use of any ones time for a product that is already widely used in the animal nutrition field. I think the people who are afraid of it aren't going to buy it no matter the results of the test and the people willing to try Forco will, test or no.

Jim Rea

 

[Debbz]

To people that are suggesting a feed trial, the problem is laboratory/control conditions for a study cannot be met, everyone would have to have the same breed of bird, from the same supplier, the same age and a narrow range of weights- then they would have to have climate control, parasite control, and exactly the same amount of food, FORCO, daylight, added artificial light and other reasonable stresses.

Then a suitable test would have to be developed to monitor the birds, will we use weight vs age, weight vs wingspan, number of feathers per square inch of bird on the (name of body part), number of sneezes in lifetime, lifetime age (longitivity), %fat around liver, Number of eggs produced in first laying year, time of first lay, laying over lifetime, capacity of lungs post mortum...?

FireTigeris, what's you've descibed is a full-on scientific study that could be written up in a journal. That type of scientific study would be a waste of time and money, I agree.

Trials can be run under more natural circumstances, gathering accurate feedback from users under their own circumstances, not involving setting up scientific and controlled conditions which don't exist in real life in anyone's flock. What we have happening already is an informal trial of Forco on chickens by some of the posters on this thread. Why waste the information that they're reporting back here, when with a little extra attention to proper recording of amounts fed, the type and age of bird they're feeding it to, and daily recorded observations of owners, that information can be reliably shared. That's the usefulness of a real life trial.