Impossible colors and patterns

[Illia]

Ah, explains that.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
Sorry...

this is how Lavender blue looks like

Below are Pearl Brahma
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j437/nicalandia/PearlBrahma.jpg

check also the nice Golden(yellow) lacing in below Game cock..
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j437/nicalandia/Goldenboy.jpg

Those Brahmas are knock-outs; are those LF or Bantams?

That's not the same game you posted above? Or do we have the single comb flopped over and different light? Mind-blowing birds, both, in any case. (ETA: nope, not the same bird, combs are very different in number of points and degree of dissection).

they are Bantams...


the rooster in question is an Ayam Bekisar(Hybrid of Green Jungle Fowl and Chickens) as you will see we(chicken fanciers) got the short end of the genetic stick when we(as humans) selected the Red Jungle Folw instead of the more colored relatives..

here another Hybrid and Green Jungle Fowls..

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
I have yet to see a Duckwing(e+) Male or female to show the Natural(unexplained as of yet) lacing found on Brichen birds

pherhaps you missed this ones

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
that black bar is natural and always pressent on mottled birds, except when Dominant white clears the black and shows only white marks, now will also be the case when you are breeding to blue, the black marks will be Blue and fade in to the blue background...

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
He? If you mean me, I've been female for 59 years now.

Sorry...

this is how Lavender blue looks like

Below are Pearl Brahma
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j437/nicalandia/PearlBrahma.jpg

check also the nice Golden(yellow) lacing in below Game cock..
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j437/nicalandia/Goldenboy.jpg

Wow, that "Pearl" is way different then the Pear seen on Old English Game Bantams.
The Pearl on Old English Game Bantams is Self Blue (Lav.) with Mottling (Mo) added.

Chris

 

[Stumpfarmer]

Quote:
Those Brahmas are knock-outs; are those LF or Bantams?

That's not the same game you posted above? Or do we have the single comb flopped over and different light? Mind-blowing birds, both, in any case. (ETA: nope, not the same bird, combs are very different in number of points and degree of dissection).

they are Bantams...


the rooster in question is an Ayam Bekisar(Hybrid of Green Jungle Fowl and Chickens) as you will see we(chicken fanciers) got the short end of the genetic stick when we(as humans) selected the Red Jungle Folw instead of the more colored relatives..

here another Hybrid and Green Jungle Fowls..
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j437/nicalandia/Violaceousdanrakan.jpg

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j437/nicalandia/greenjungle-fowl1-1.jpghttp://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j437/nicalandia/greenjungle-fowl2.jpghttp://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j437/nicalandia/greenjungle-fowl3.jpghttp://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j437/nicalandia/ayam-bekisar.jpg

Greens are monagamous, though, aren't they? Beautiful, beautiful birds, and gorgeous hybrids from their breeding; I spent one sleepless night recently chasing all the google images I could find all over the net.

The people I know who've studied the archaeology of domestication are pretty sure that the Red Jungle Fowl chose us and not the other way around, or at least they made the first move. They are more aggressive in seeking food in human settlements, less prone to leave a disturbed nest, and are maybe more scavengers than Greens? I can't remember the whole list off hand.

ETA: was the Lavender developed from Dark Brahma? I'm just getting the hang of the underlying patterns, and cant quite see how you'd get there from the columbian of Light Brahma. Anyway, glad those are bantams, they're going on the list of potentials to investigate for the bantam slot (I'm trying to decide on ornamental bantams to replace perennials in my pretty much abandoned 20X12 front entry bed).

 

[tadkerson]

Quote:
Genetics 101

I think you may (hypothetical) be able to produce a blue spangled bird ( blue base color with black spangles). The bird would carry extended black (E), melanotic (Ml), dark brown (Db) and pattern (Pg) and heterozygous for blue Bl/bl. It would not make any difference if the bird was silver or gold.

My rational is that birds that are blue can express black i.e the black pyle zone in andalusian males and lacing or edging in male or female andalusian. It is the black produced by the pattern gene and melanotic that will stay black and not be diluted to blue. The black which is due to the extended black gene will be diluted to blue.

The pattern gene and dark brown gene will form the black spangle.


That would be an interesting project.

Tim

 

[tadkerson]

Quote:
he was talking about the Lacing being Gold instead of Black...

Lacing that is Gold is possible, but Nobody I know is working on the Yet..

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/ruffEnuff_photos/oddsnends/IMG_4521.jpg

Nica,

I have seen the lacing before but it was always associated with the blue gene. Is the bird in the picture a splash?

Tim

 

[Stumpfarmer]

Quote:
Genetics 101

I think you may (hypothetical) be able to produce a blue spangled bird ( blue base color with black spangles). The bird would carry extended black (E), melanotic (Ml), dark brown (Db) and pattern (Pg) and heterozygous for blue Bl/bl. It would not make any difference if the bird was silver or gold.

My rational is that birds that are blue can express black i.e the black pyle zone in andalusian males and lacing or edging in male or female andalusian. It is the black produced by the pattern gene and melanotic that will stay black and not be diluted to blue. The black which is due to the extended black gene will be diluted to blue.

The pattern gene and dark brown gene will form the blue spangle.


That would be an interesting project.

Tim

Oh, boy.

I wondered about pattern genetics; it's something I'm a bit more familiar with, at least in the physical world- I raise Shorthorn cattle, and while the 4H demonstration level of that breed's genetics says there's red/red and white, white, and roan, there's also a wide variety of patterns possible in both the red-and-white and roan colors, which mark breed lines more reliably than anything else except udder shape. So experience tells me that pattern is robust.

I've been watching my Hamburg cockerel feather out from the time he was about eight weeks old, and the way the colors differentiate along the length of the feather challenges what I know (patched together from journal articles: no formal training in genetics) about how these things work.

 

[saladin]

I agree with Tim completely. You can/should be able to produce a bird with a blue background that has was appears to be black spangles. The spangling will most likely be irregular but it does happen. I'll see if I can get some pictures posted within the next week that show this. Off subject: I do have a rather striking Blue Spangled Asil stag....


Just a side note.
Dr I Lehr Brisban (a close friend of mine) retired University of GA. Worked with the Red Jungle Fowl for over 40 years at the Savannah River Site. he does not believe that the true Red Jungle Fowl was the bird domesticated into our modern chicken. He believes it was a cross (red/green /grey) that was used. The report that came from Japan most recently claiming the Red Jungle Fowl as the sole ancestor were refuted by Dr Brisban because the Red Jungle Fowl the Japanese used in their DNA test had been contaminated with domestic chickens in the recent past.
Also, archeaology has been of very very little help when it comes to chicken domestication. Chicken bones being hollow do not preserve well, Where they have been discovered (caves) it is impossible to tell if they weren't just hunted. Written records show that chickens were first used in cocking.