Inbreeding and Line-Breeding Poultry

[cleansquared]

Most of this has no bearing in reality as Saladin said.

FYI an Orpington should never come close to laying that, they are a dual purpose breed and the qualities that make better layers make worse meat animals and vice versa.

Back in the old days egg production was very low, a lot had to do with feeding as nutritional sciences have advanced so has production in all aspects of poultry. Genetics plays a role too, but it comes at the cost of losing breeds identities.

FYI, with proper line breeding you can increase productive qualities, not hinder them. Having to bring in new blood all the time is the sign of a bad breeder.

i would have to dissagree on some of this i have been researching alot lately into chicken genetics...and all the information i have found on upwards of 10 (all ive researched in cluding the orp.. Had much better egg production at the turn of the century than they do now i read the same statistic (old show stats) of upwards of 300 eggs a year of a deep dark brown color and was a good meat bird what has killed the utility function in all breeds so far as i can tell and this is not just my opinion is show breeding instead of breeding for production traits first

 

[cleansquared]

It seems that when breeding for show traits the breeds loose utility production both ways in fact now because of this problem world wide there is a movement in the uk to try to get some of the heratige breeds back to a higher utility status they call it breeding for utility look it up.. So it really depends on as a breeder what you are trying to accomplish the person chicken farmer is talking about breeding for utility not for show....

 

[BGMatt]

It seems that when breeding for show traits the breeds loose utility production both ways in fact now because of this problem world wide there is a movement in the uk to try to get some of the heratige breeds back to a higher utility status they call it breeding for utility look it up.. So it really depends on as a breeder what you are trying to accomplish the person chicken farmer is talking about breeding for utility not for show....

Considering the standard is written with production in mind, these statements are ignorant and wrong. Don't believe everything you read online.

 

[cleansquared]

If a breeder is breeding for show and can improve color on chicken or other show traits they will do it as there is ususally nothing in the standard saying the egg having to be a certian color level ( level or degree of color) or size the marans being the exception which is why you still see a dark egg in this breed because its listed in the show standard.. You can look at the data from the turn of the century and see the color hue of eggs has degraded and number the birds are producing has also degraded because these are not qualities which will count against them at shows and so thoes qualities will slide where color and form for show will prevail so do your research before you call people ignorant..

 

[BGMatt]

If a breeder is breeding for show and can improve color on chicken or other show traits they will do it as there is ususally nothing in the standard saying the egg having to be a certian color level ( level or degree of color) or size the marans being the exception which is why you still see a dark egg in this breed because its listed in the show standard.. You can look at the data from the turn of the century and see the color hue of eggs has degraded and number the birds are producing has also degraded because these are not qualities which will count against them at shows and so thoes qualities will slide where color and form for show will prevail so do your research before you call people ignorant..

All breeds have egg color and utility info listed in the standard. Perhaps you should look in one and see. Production has gone up in commercial lines since they started going away from purebreds in the 50's. the turn of the century a good egg laying breed like a leghorn would lay around 250 eggs a year on average. The star of the dual purpose breeds was the Rhode Island Red which was around 180-225 eggs on average. Of course individual specimens could be better or worse. But perhaps you need to reference or recheck your facts. I've done my research, and none of it comes from newbies online.

Edit: Anyone who has spent a lifetime in livestock animals like I have knows that form follows function. The form called for in the standard is what enables type. There may be show breeders who do not breed for production, but there are just as many that do and it's a slap in the face to arrogantly an incorrectly say that you cannot have birds bred to standard that are as productive or more so then those breeds have ever been.

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: Matt is absolutely correct. Form follows function. Restated: function is determined by breed type. Population genetics and the SOP can walk hand in hand. If you take a breed variety like Light Sussex and you faithfully breed it for its historic production values, your birds should closely approach the SOP. That's how closely the Sussex APA SOP defines the breed's production values.
I do understand that breeding for utility using population genetics is very focused on the numbers and virtues. It is numbers being selected for production virtues. In some ways, an SOP may not enter into thinking when analyzing data. But it doesn't have to be that way in poultry. Maybe in other species where breeders of "fancy" creatures have gotten in there and adjusted the SOP for their breed to suit the fancy breeders instead of the historic utility for that breed. However, in poultry, the production virtues in the breeds have overall been jealously guarded as defined in the SOP.
Best,
Karen
Waterford Light Sussex
in western PA, USA

 

[Michelle82]

Hallo
For your information - > Is a very harsh way to say something. Lets clarify this is an advanced day and age. There are many good breeders in my area. We take great care at bringing in new stock.

We select very early at 6 weeks is the best time. At this time you select for growth rate and vigour. Some roosters show there sex more profoundly than others at this early age. This is a good thing. I do agree that your selection process is not over at six weeks. You merely mark those with outstanding features, because once they've all grown it is hard to distinguish. Ones your chickens are grown and of breeding age then you select for looks. Your breed standard.

For example - Say you have 12 chicks( 6male and 6 female) they hatched on the same day, eat the same food and live in the same pin. At six weeks 3 males are bigger and stronger than the other 3 males. Mark them. You do that with every batch of chicks you get. Twenty weeks later you have to select what you want to keep. The chickens are mixed with chicks that hatched a little later, but are almost the same size. Now you have to select. Say you have four outstanding roosters in the cage. You see two are marked. You look at the number on the tag, you check you record book. You see that the two tagged were tagged for outstanding vigour. Now what would you want to breed with ?

Buying in blood lines from other good breeders keeps your culling percentage down. Keeps your egg production and fertility up. Plus you make wonderful friends who share your love for chickens. It does not make you a BAD breeder, especially for beginners that can learn a lot from others.

Line breeding has great advantages and I said how to do initial selections from your own flock. Ornamental poultry and show poultry benefit greatly from commercial practises. Just imagine your chickens within three years of careful selection producing 25% more eggs per year and you still get the high price for the chickens you sell. This means more money.

So after some work I've managed to get my Orpingtons to lay 240 eggs per hen per year.(Started at 90 eggs per hen per year) That is without lights to increase daylight hours or any fancy housing just good food and careful selection. That is what DUAL purpose initially meant - lots of eggs and carcass with meat. So yes, if you don't buy in new blood you can get your chickens great looking faster. I'm saying egg production, vigour and fertility and good looks can go together.

Select for both. Read on commercial practises you'll pick up a few tricks.

So from a bad breeder ..
Good luck.

 

[saladin]

You missed the point entirely. As for education we can start swapping degrees if you like as well as practical experience.

In the world of Chickens there are several different types whose uses vary as far as the east is from the west:

1. Egg production
2. Meat production
3. Dual purpose breeds
4. Games

Let's take cat. 4 as an example that shows how wrong you are. First, egg production is not a consideration; thus, the whole idea of selecting for 25% more eggs could very well ruin the breed in question. HOW DO YOU THINK THE LEGHORN WAS DEVELOPED? It's nothing more or less than a Game whose selection became something other than Heart.

Another prime example, Oriental Games grow extremely slow. Selecting for fast growth will give you a multitude of heart and leg problems. Many young cockerels will not even attempt to crow until well past one year of age; some nearer to two.

The point was (and is) that you gave out some 'general rules' (which I question even in those breeds to which you think they apply) and applied them across the board. That is totally wrong.

I've studied poultry genetics too long and raised way to many chickens to give any credence to your suggestions.

By the way, I've never hatched just 12 chicks. lol. If it ain't in the hundreds then you've lost me. Just saying.

 

[Michelle82]

So for you breeding in mass and culling is the best way to get the ultimate best looking chicken ? If I understand correctly you do especially with the rare breeds ? Where good stock is hard to find. What breeds would you suggest that this method is best for ? If say one wants to breed something as common as a Silver laced Wyandotte would you still use that method? I see we have extremely different approaches which is why I would love to learn. If perhaps you could refer me some internet based reading material.

I do breed in scale. I have 4000 eggs capacity breeding facility. I'm not being difficult, I joined this site to learn. I hate culling. Out here even bantam roosters have a market for meat, nothing is wasted. Last week a teacher was killed in my town for his beer and two maloti. (that is a tenth of a dollar). Selling imperfect stock to the local market is standard practise.

My love for chickens is in a totally different direction. I take old breeds, that were well know for their excellent dual purpose way back then and find their former glory. My goal is not to breed the best show birds, but to breed the best productive, disease resistant, hardy chickens that are still gorgeous and meet the show standards. I wish to put a affordable, productive chicken in every shack, hut and hop-home in Lesotho.

For me egg production is vital even in my Phoenix, Wyandottes, Pekins even the Frizzels. I am still working on getting my Orpintons to lay 300eggs per hen per year. I do however stay away from chickens that are closer to pheasants than chickens.

My goal summarized -> I want to breed highly productive show quality chickens. Productive would be no less than 200 eggs a year(egg deformity less than 9%), fertility rate no lower than 90%,sucessful hatch (after culling) no less than 70% and birds meeting breed standard 80% of everything that hatched.

For me my approach so far has worked very well, but I love to learn about other approaches and methods. Especially when it comes to rare breeds.

 

[Matt1616]

So for you breeding in mass and culling is the best way to get the ultimate best looking chicken ? If I understand correctly you do especially with the rare breeds ? Where good stock is hard to find. What breeds would you suggest that this method is best for ? If say one wants to breed something as common as a Silver laced Wyandotte would you still use that method? I see we have extremely different approaches which is why I would love to learn. If perhaps you could refer me some internet based reading material.

I do breed in scale. I have 4000 eggs capacity breeding facility. I'm not being difficult, I joined this site to learn. I hate culling. Out here even bantam roosters have a market for meat, nothing is wasted. Last week a teacher was killed in my town for his beer and two maloti. (that is a tenth of a dollar). Selling imperfect stock to the local market is standard practise.

My love for chickens is in a totally different direction. I take old breeds, that were well know for their excellent dual purpose way back then and find their former glory. My goal is not to breed the best show birds, but to breed the best productive, disease resistant, hardy chickens that are still gorgeous and meet the show standards. I wish to put a affordable, productive chicken in every shack, hut and hop-home in Lesotho.

For me egg production is vital even in my Phoenix, Wyandottes, Pekins even the Frizzels. I am still working on getting my Orpintons to lay 300eggs per hen per year. I do however stay away from chickens that are closer to pheasants than chickens.

My goal summarized -> I want to breed highly productive show quality chickens. Productive would be no less than 200 eggs a year(egg deformity less than 9%), fertility rate no lower than 90%,sucessful hatch (after culling) no less than 70% and birds meeting breed standard 80% of everything that hatched.

For me my approach so far has worked very well, but I love to learn about other approaches and methods. Especially when it comes to rare breeds.

Michelle, first off I would like to welcome you to the site. I would then like to say that the 2 groups having this conversation are 2 different worlds.
I highlighted several statements in your post and I will give you my point of view on those.
Silver Laced Wyandottes are not common at all. There are only 6-7 breeders of quality SLW's in the U.S.
Your reference to finding their former glory...I'm not sure what material you done your research on but all of the material here in the U.S. states that the original Orpingtons layed about 160-200 eggs a year.
Breeding for production and show quality is pretty much impossible. You would have to produce tremendous amounts of chicks each year to even try to attempt this. What if your most productive chicken is your worst as far as standard and you best as far as standard is you least productive...what would you do?
I have been breeding and showing chickens for some time and you will never produce 80% that meet the standard as a matter of fact, I have never produced a bird that met the standard and assume I never will as the standard describes the perfect bird and there is no such thing.

I do have a question for you as well, is the Buff Orpington in your avatar what you would consider a show quality chicken or meeting the breed standard?

Not trying to be mean at all I am just curious.