Inbreeding

[Egghead_Jr]

Your system isn't ruined. It may or may not fast track your birds to express faults is all. Also you don't say how closely related the origin sire and dam were. In some cases brother to sister is commonplace. For instance I'll be mating brothers and sisters, same sire and three hens, this spring to produce F2. Then mating those F2 next spring for F3 and so on. I'm doing this to set desired traits into a new line. The original parent stock were not related, from two different lines. Starting with such genetic diversity gives me a lot of room to play building a flock. There will be F1 crossed back to dam stock this spring too. With leg bands and records it's easy to keep track of what breeding a bird came from, i.e. Dam line, F1, F2, F1BCD, etc., to make educated choices for future line breeding.

Looking at a basic line breeding chart and deliberately riding my flock of sire line suddenly limits the chart to one side. In essence my group 4 (F2) is directly under group 3 (F1) and would be represented as 50/50 blood again, and group 3 moves over to act as the sire line for future back crosses. Line breeding is merely having a fair plan of action. The quality of birds will be the main force behind what direction your actual breeding chart takes. But in keeping track of groups you can still maintain as much diversity as possible.

 

[Maddison]

Your system isn't ruined. It may or may not fast track your birds to express faults is all. Also you don't say how closely related the origin sire and dam were. In some cases brother to sister is commonplace. For instance I'll be mating brothers and sisters, same sire and three hens, this spring to produce F2. Then mating those F2 next spring for F3 and so on. I'm doing this to set desired traits into a new line. The original parent stock were not related, from two different lines. Starting with such genetic diversity gives me a lot of room to play building a flock. There will be F1 crossed back to dam stock this spring too. With leg bands and records it's easy to keep track of what breeding a bird came from, i.e. Dam line, F1, F2, F1BCD, etc., to make educated choices for future line breeding.

Looking at a basic line breeding chart and deliberately riding my flock of sire line suddenly limits the chart to one side. In essence my group 4 (F2) is directly under group 3 (F1) and would be represented as 50/50 blood again, and group 3 moves over to act as the sire line for future back crosses.

the sire and dams all have the same father but different mother, with the great dam and sire having completely diffirent blood lines, so breeding with there chicks will be a bad thing or no?

 

[007Sean]

Your system isn't ruined. It may or may not fast track your birds to express faults is all. Also you don't say how closely related the origin sire and dam were. In some cases brother to sister is commonplace. For instance I'll be mating brothers and sisters, same sire and three hens, this spring to produce F2. Then mating those F2 next spring for F3 and so on. I'm doing this to set desired traits into a new line. The original parent stock were not related, from two different lines. Starting with such genetic diversity gives me a lot of room to play building a flock. There will be F1 crossed back to dam stock this spring too. With leg bands and records it's easy to keep track of what breeding a bird came from, i.e. Dam line, F1, F2, F1BCD, etc., to make educated choices for future line breeding.

Looking at a basic line breeding chart and deliberately riding my flock of sire line suddenly limits the chart to one side. In essence my group 4 (F2) is directly under group 3 (F1) and would be represented as 50/50 blood again, and group 3 moves over to act as the sire line for future back crosses. Line breeding is merely having a fair plan of action. The quality of birds will be the main force behind what direction your actual breeding chart takes. But in keeping track of groups you can still maintain as much diversity as possible.

I agree, keeping records is the ONLY way to know what you got and where to go with a breeding program.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

the sire and dams all have the same father but different mother, with the great dam and sire having completely diffirent blood lines, so breeding with there chicks will be a bad thing or no?

No it's not a bad thing at all. This is commonplace to make F2, F3 and up to set a new line fast. You have the luxury of retained grand sire too, if he's of very good quality, to run both sides of a line breeding chart. I don't know of anyone going further than an F5 generation (brother to sister) and that would be a direct line down from F1 if you made a chart. You have the Dam line AND Sire line to cross back to for other breeding groups to pick from to maintain diversity in your flock. The charts are reference and a way you can visually represent your matings. The quality of birds will dictate how complete any given chart becomes. Say a F3 generation shows side sprigs then your not going to continue with them and go back to F2 to sire, dam or F1 and so on. The idea is you create different breeding groups so you can track progress and faults by groups and have the variety of genetic groups for a multitude of pairings. You can't only breed brother to sister, F generations, indefinitely. It takes backcrossing to aunts/uncles and cousin matings to maintain diversity. You can see if a person only mated back to the actual dam or only created F generations you'd soon loose diversity. Which is not a bad thing but is as quick a way to run into expressed faults as it is to express desired traits. You need to be breeding groups of different genetic makeup to maintain a deeper gene pool for the long haul.

It's about keeping records and incubating one group at a time to maintain those records.

 

[The Kooky Kiwi]

Maddison.. It might be helpful if you read my post earlier in this thread. I don't think it is particularly useful for us to focus on the terminology of "in-breeding" and "line-breeding". What you need to focus on is the choice of birds you have for breeding purposes. If you have bred a brother and a sister together.. and collectively they have all the good traits you want and none of the bad traits.. then you have succeeded in a good match and hopefully you have been blessed with wonderful babies to continue breeding with. I think what people are trying to say.. is that a brother and sister, having come from the same parents, have a greater chance of sharing common traits.. both bad and good.. so it is a "riskier" match. Remember that saying "high risk for high reward". A daughter will only receive half her DNA from her father so a match between the two will involve a greater DNA pool - perhaps a less risky affair? Whichever way you go, if you have chosen the best birds you have, and you are careful to not continue breeding bad traits.. then this is what breeding is all about!!

 

[Maddison]

Maddison.. It might be helpful if you read my post earlier in this thread. I don't think it is particularly useful for us to focus on the terminology of "in-breeding" and "line-breeding". What you need to focus on is the choice of birds you have for breeding purposes. If you have bred a brother and a sister together.. and collectively they have all the good traits you want and none of the bad traits.. then you have succeeded in a good match and hopefully you have been blessed with wonderful babies to continue breeding with. I think what people are trying to say.. is that a brother and sister, having come from the same parents, have a greater chance of sharing common traits.. both bad and good.. so it is a "riskier" match. Remember that saying "high risk for high reward". A daughter will only receive half her DNA from her father so a match between the two will involve a greater DNA pool - perhaps a less risky affair? Whichever way you go, if you have chosen the best birds you have, and you are careful to not continue breeding bad traits.. then this is what breeding is all about!!

thankyou, I've for sure got the best genes and traits possible, and its not like I have easy access to this breed so I have to work with what I got. Im breeding Transylvanian naked necks, one hen I have is blue with a black head, and I was lucky enough to get a full black chick with white tipped wings and belly, with nearly completely naked neck. cant wait to see what it looks like when it grows up! I will only breed the first gen of my flocks chicks and the chicks I breed from them will be sold as a hobby, so there wont be much brother sister pairings after that.

 

[CiceroXY]

It would be interesting to know the inbreeding coefficients based on all the different types of breeding (brother X sister - father/mother X daughter/son - grandfather/grandmother X niece/nephew etc) in order to calculate the "limit" that it's better not to transgress.

 

[nicalandia]

Father to daughter or mother to son is line breeding and is a long time accepted practice. Brother to sister is inbreeding and is the quickest way to bring out hidden recessive traits that are undesirable.

I agree with you here, I avoid F1xF1 as much as possible, F1xBC1 is line breeding and nothing wrong with that