Incubation - Membrane Question

[Deja_view]

Hello everyone,
I have had ducks and geese for over three years now and have hatched both multiple times.
I bought seven Sebastopol eggs last month and drove to pick them up, so no shipping. I did not have a way of candling them until I got home, which showed me one of them was already rotten. Two never started developing.
I have used my Hova-Bator 2370 forced air incubator with automatic turner every time I have hatched eggs. I have multiple calibrated thermometers and hygrometers monitoring temperature and humidity. Temperature has been 99.5-99.7°F and humidity has been 20-35%.
They are on day 25 today and have lost 13-15% of their weight, the air cells are dipping, blood vessels are present, and movement is visible.
My concern is that none of the eggs have chorioallantoic membranes completely covering the inside of their shells. The best one has about a nickel-sized area that's not covered, the worst is about 1/5 of the shell uncovered. I started some duck eggs a few days after them to try and line up hatching times the best I could and all five of them are completely covered.
There is not a ton of information available on survivability, any adjustments I should make at this point to try and increase hatching rates, etc. The most I found on BYC was a mention in Pete's incubation guide that they would most likely die in week three without a fully formed membrane. We're past three weeks and still alive.
Anyone have any experience with this or advice?

 

[JRies]

I guess I don't understand at this point day 25 they should be filled in with just a little visible liquid at the top towards the air cell if the membrane was missing they wouldn't have a air cell.

 

[Deja_view]

I guess I don't understand at this point day 25 they should be filled in with just a little visible liquid at the top towards the air cell if the membrane was missing they wouldn't have a air cell.

The chorioallantoic membrane (CAM) is not within the end of the egg that contains the air cell itself, but should cover the inside of the rest of the egg. It is a different membrane than the inner shell membrane, which is what makes the air cell. The CAM develops as the egg develops, running vessels along the inside of the shell to help with gas exchange and calcium absorption. Here is a photo of one of my eggs that I'm concerned about. The lighter spot is where the CAM failed to develop fully, hence no vessels along that part of the shell.

 

[JRies]

Thank you for explaining. Thats so sad. Are you sure its not a stuck embryo that couldnt spread. It dosent sound like the eggs were well cared for before you got them. If there not turned during storage sometimes the embryos never have a chance even if there healthy they cant float and spread. Just a thought

 

[Deja_view]

Thank you for explaining. Thats so sad. Are you sure its not a stuck embryo that couldnt spread. It dosent sound like the eggs were well cared for before you got them. If there not turned during storage sometimes the embryos never have a chance even if there healthy they cant float and spread. Just a thought

I'm going to be quite sad if none of these guys make it.

I suppose that's a possibility, but they all seemed to be moving throughout earlier incubation. Though now that I think back, they may have been moving a lot less than the duck embryos that are incubating along with them. The one with the least CAM development does seem to be moving the most right now though, which i would think would be less so if it was stuck to the shell? I wish I would have taken more photos/videos throughout.

The person supposedly turned them throughout storage, which would have been three to four days before I got them.

Then again, they also supposedly candled them as well. And I ended up with a rotten egg the day I brought them home.

 

[JRies]

I'm going to be quite sad if none of these guys make it.

I suppose that's a possibility, but they all seemed to be moving throughout earlier incubation. Though now that I think back, they may have been moving a lot less than the duck embryos that are incubating along with them. The one with the least CAM development does seem to be moving the most right now though, which i would think would be less so if it was stuck to the shell? I wish I would have taken more photos/videos throughout.

The person supposedly turned them throughout storage, which would have been three to four days before I got them.

Then again, they also supposedly candled them as well. And I ended up with a rotten egg the day I brought them home.

My heart goes out to you. Goose eggs are not the easy est of eggs to work with but all I hatch. I have read allot of studies over the years to improve my hatches and to of the most important parts are the heath of the stock and the care of the eggs (collection time, storing temperature, number of turns a day) before set. Things that you have no control over with this hatch.

 

[Deja_view]

My heart goes out to you. Goose eggs are not the easy est of eggs to work with but all I hatch. I have read allot of studies over the years to improve my hatches and to of the most important parts are the heath of the stock and the care of the eggs (collection time, storing temperature, number of turns a day) before set. Things that you have no control over with this hatch.

I have had Pilgrim Geese the longest and have successfully hatched them a few times. They were also eggs from my own stock, so I knew the health and handling beforehand. I have Pomeranian Geese as well, but have not hatched any at this point.

All of my past goose egg incubations were much easier than the Call Ducks I hatched, most of which required assistance because of their short little bills.

Two of the Sebastopol eggs, the two with the most CAM development, are starting with shadowing today. Internal pip should be imminent at this point, but we'll see how it goes. The egg with the least CAM development is concerning me a bit because I see movement (and possibly a bill) at the end of the egg opposite of the air cell and nothing at the air cell itself. I've propped up the air cell end a tad to see if it can/will turn. I'm thinking I may need to assist if it keeps up at the wrong end.

 

[JRies]

My fingers are crossed for you. I have a small hatch that started today. Only 2 more after that and Im done for the season. My last hatch was the hardest one I ever had we had a power outage for 12 hours and that group had just started the dip and wiggle lots of backwards babies that couldn't compete there turn there were 48 eggs in that hatch only 32 made it through. Then its time to enjoy the fun.

 

[Deja_view]

My fingers are crossed for you. I have a small hatch that started today. Only 2 more after that and Im done for the season. My last hatch was the hardest one I ever had we had a power outage for 12 hours and that group had just started the dip and wiggle lots of backwards babies that couldn't compete there turn there were 48 eggs in that hatch only 32 made it through. Then its time to enjoy the fun.

Here's to hoping. Good luck with the rest of your hatches.

Oh, power outages are the worst in the middle of incubation. Luckily, I haven't had any outages longer than 10 minutes while incubating eggs. I have had long bouts of no power while raising orphaned neonate kittens though, so I understand the struggle of no power when warmth is needed. After the first outage is when I started keeping a stash of air activated back warmers in my house. A few hours of warmth and a bigger surface area than the little hand warmers. No electric needed.