Interesting article on predators

[chickortreat]

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If I owned sheep and was losing them to wolves, said wolves would definitely be endangered. There is no way I'd sit by and watch a wolf kill my livestock just because some "expert" a thousand miles away thought there weren't enough of them. It's ultimately up to me to protect what's mine, and I intend to do so.

 

[chickortreat]

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You're shooting the messenger. Maybe if people paid attention to what the biologist have learned they could coexist with these animals better and wouldn't be losing chickens, pets, etc. to them.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but I won't be learning to coexist with them in or around my yard. I know criminals exist, and I don't go hunting them, but if/when they come around my house, I plan to do something about it. Seems to me these two problems are parallel, at least in theory. There are folks who seem to get their kicks crying out for the rights of inmates, all the while ignoring the victims of said inmates. I personally think that these folks need to be forced partipants in the "House a Violent Criminal for a Month" plan. He gets to live with them for a month and they can treat him as amiably as they wish. Same with predators. Let the biologists that love them so dearly relocate them to areas where people who love and appreciate them can do just that....love and appreciate them.

 

[Talihofarms]

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If I owned sheep and was losing them to wolves, said wolves would definitely be endangered. There is no way I'd sit by and watch a wolf kill my livestock just because some panty-waisted armchair expert a thousand miles away thought there weren't enough of them.

The sheep I am refering to are Mountain sheep not domesticated. My point is the wolf sheep relationship has kept GMU14 one of the best if not the best natural un touched preditor prey balances. The coyotes came and ruined the party. Hope I cleard that up.

 

[woodmort]

Quote:
You're shooting the messenger. Maybe if people paid attention to what the biologist have learned they could coexist with these animals better and wouldn't be losing chickens, pets, etc. to them.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but I won't be learning to coexist with them in or around my yard. I know criminals exist, and I don't go hunting them, but if/when they come around my house, I plan to do something about it. Seems to me these two problems are parallel, at least in theory. There are folks who seem to get their kicks crying out for the rights of inmates, all the while ignoring the victims of said inmates. I personally think that these folks need to be forced partipants in the "House a Violent Criminal for a Month" plan. He gets to live with them for a month and they can treat him as amiably as they wish. Same with predators. Let the biologists that love them so dearly relocate them to areas where people who love and appreciate them can do just that....love and appreciate them.

Clearly this is hijacking this thread but if I understand you correctly if one thinks someone wandering by their house is or could be a criminal then they have the right to shoot them. If you go to the article on coyotes by the biologist you will see that he says that if coyotes are threatening or attacking then lethal methods should be use. But he also says that simple indiscriminate killing is not going to make the coyote population disappear nor does it need to. The position of the NYS DEC is that one should learn to live with them and, as long as safeguards like are in place one can.

 

[chickortreat]

Okay, sorry for the lame parallel. I just can't fathom allowing my birds to fall prey to predators when it's in my power to prevent it. And I do love/live to hunt.

 

[woodmort]

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I do too like to hunt although the last 10 years or so I haven't--the main reasons being that coyotes killed my Springer Spaniel and my favorite game, ruffed grouse, are getting to that 30% population density. Also, please understand that 3 feet from where I am sitting is a .22 mag topped by a varmint scope with a 100 yd varmint light attached to it and in a drawer behind me are two filled clips with the key to the gun lock. I can, in 60 sec. or less, get from here to my back door with a fully operational firearm which I would use to take out any varmint, be it coon, possom, skunk, fox, coyote or human that threatened my chickens, my pets or my family. However, I see no sense in bothering them if they are just passing through since I cannot eat them. In fact, if I were to shoot pests for just being pests I'd take out the herd of half a dozen whitetails that eat off my garden, blueberry plants, flowering shrubs and spread ticks and Lyme disease.

 

[TomG]

Quote:
I do too like to hunt although the last 10 years or so I haven't--the main reasons being that coyotes killed my Springer Spaniel and my favorite game, ruffed grouse, are getting to that 30% population density. Also, please understand that 3 feet from where I am sitting is a .22 mag topped by a varmint scope with a 100 yd varmint light attached to it and in a drawer behind me are two filled clips with the key to the gun lock. I can, in 60 sec. or less, get from here to my back door with a fully operational firearm which I would use to take out any varmint, be it coon, possom, skunk, fox, coyote or human that threatened my chickens, my pets or my family. However, I see no sense in bothering them if they are just passing through since I cannot eat them. In fact, if I were to shoot pests for just being pests I'd take out the herd of half a dozen whitetails that eat off my garden, blueberry plants, flowering shrubs and spread ticks and Lyme disease.

Dang Woodmort! A whole new light on ya. Kinda like it... Rambomort?

 

[Parrotchick]

Those "panty waisted armchair experts" spend a heck of a lot more time in the field observing, taking data, and otherwise being objective than a bunch of drunken rednecks stumbling about at dawn or tumbling out of their treehouses.

Now how's that for some nasty stereo-typing? It's called "wildlife management" for a reason and the people doing it have spent years studying it and not just in libraries, though that is certainly a part. It is not based on anecdote. And like any science, it's constantly evolving, based on new information and changing conditions. And like in any field, there is often disagreement between the experts. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because doctors and researchers can't cure all cancer, doesn't mean you say screw it and reach for the leeches.

And believe me, these scientists are not the ones with the "warm fuzzies." They aren't looking out for single species; they are looking at the big picture and what is beneficial for the entire system to be healthy. If they did not, the country would be overrun by cute little duckies but all the icky creepy crawlies would be eliminated. Then what would the cute little duckies eat?

Granted I don't have much land nor a big operation. But I have a llama with my sheep and my birds have fences, pens, coops, and dogs nearby. I know it's difficult to be 100% safe, but knock on wood, I haven't had a predator issue yet. Living in a place that's popular with x kind of predator, and just about any place in the world will have some sort, and trying to eliminate the predator without taking other measures to protect your own is akin to the folks who move to the country and complain about the smell of cow manure and expect the local dairy to be shut down. Or leaving your money on the steps next to the crack house and complaining that it was taken and shooting the next crackhead that comes along. Like roosters crowing, crackheads and coyotes do what they do and you're not going to change their nature or eliminate them. You can take measures though to keep your property from being such an obvious target and yes you may even be able to change some individuals' behavior.

 

[BlacksheepCardigans]

One of my first jobs out of college (yes, with a professional/ecology degree) was working for a Reservation company that managed 60 or so highly sensitive parcels loaded with migratory birds and endangered species. Every year it was the same drill - hundreds of letters from idiots furious that anyone was allowed to kill the deer that were grazing everything down to nothing and then starving to death in droves, and hundreds of letters from idiots furious that they couldn't drive their 4-wheelers over Piping Plover nests.

Nobody works harder in the field than wildlife biologists, and I've never met a single one that was a bleeding heart. Wildlife biologists are the ones that push for controlled kills, against the wishes of the people who think every seagull is a pet; they're the ones who get death threats for shortening hunting seasons when populations are crashing. You can TRY telling my friends who slept on the beach for three months at a time so they could high-beam the drunk college kids trying to pee on Least Terns that they're armchair experts, but I strongly suspect they've spent about 10x more hours in the field than anyone who thinks shooting coyote in the yard makes them the bomb.

 

[calista]

Eloquently spoken, Joanna. Thanks for sharing that point of view.

Trying to educate the public about alternative choices for ANYTHING they've always done a certain way is one of the hardest jobs in the world, no matter what career field you're in. It's good to know that level of commitment and determination exists for those sworn to manage and defend our wildlife and environment.