Internal Layers and Other Egg Issues....Will this never end?? LONG

[speckledhen]

I forgot that Iris, Hazel and Scarlett are two years old, Lee. I'm so, so happy they have no issues. And they were all hatched right here by me. You do have more red clay than I do up here in the mtns. Same here, runs are shady for the most part, but they range in the sunshine all over my property.

 

[mikarod]

this is just me...

But that reproductive tract looks more nectrotic than inflamed. I believe you're seeing a buildup of the lining of the repro tract than internal laying. Usually, an internal layer will "drop" her yolks into the abdomen...not keep them in the repro tract.

Also, usually, you can pierce the abdomen and attempt to "drain" the yolks from the body. I have seen it done...and it works...but it must be done regularly and is, in my opinion, painful.

I wonder...have you tried giving testosterone to your birds to at least stop the cycling of eggs?

Forgive me if I sound mean...I am definitely not attempting to.

 

[BeardedChick]

Well, if you consider something like HPV which is a virus that can cause cancer in certain people (for ex. one risk factor is women who have had several children)... I think it's entirely possible that there are multiple complex factors that we will NEVER completely understand. There could be viral, genetic, and/or environmental factors combining to wreak havok.

This discussion makes the point to me that the wide gene pool of heritage breeds is incredibly important.

 

[mikarod]

Ok. I've been over to the other thread and have looked there too.

Is there a way you have clear photos of the liver, heart and ovaries?

What was the consistency of the ovary? Were there follicles still on it?

 

[speckledhen]

In the first girl who died, there were three or four follicles still intact and loose yolk in the abdomen. In the other three, there were no follicles present. I dont know how to judge the consistency of the ovaries, though. And I dont recall what they looked like. We didn't excise Rosemary's ovaries, just the heart, liver and all that cooked stuff inside of her. Dr. Brown reviewed some of the necropsy photos from Lorelei, one of the SLWs, and said it was classic internal laying. I would bet Rosemary's was necrotic after 8 months of non-production, but it most likely did start out as inflamed.

mikarod, you dont sound mean, but testosterone? Why would I do that? And who would I give it to? I have 40-something layers and I have no way of knowing for sure which ones will be internal layers. To stop the cycles of the entire flock seems unnecessary. And quite frankly, why would I stop all my layers from laying when that is the point of having them? I dont want them to completely stop laying, just to take proper breaks from it and not to be killed by non-stop egg production. Yes, they are pets, too, but still...
If you look at the Lorelei thread here, there are photos of some of her organs. Not sure if we got any of the ovaries, though.

 

[mikarod]

Dr. Clark said it doesn't quite look like "classic" internal laying...as the yolks should be somewhat free-flowing in the abdomen.

Well, you can FORCE them to make a molt and it will cause them to cease egg production.

As for testosterone, I meant to give testosterone injections or even oral supplement to the ones that you know for sure are internal layers. It will help to stop their cycles.

As for consistency of the ovaries...I meant...were they firm? Rubbery? Cheese-like? Dry?

Okay...I will try and look at Lorelei's thread. I had seen one with the heart, but couldn't get a clear view of the liver.

 

[speckledhen]

They are molting, mikarod, most of them anyway. That doesn't stop most of these hatchery birds I have from laying. I wish they would! They just keep producing egg after egg while naked, for months on end. Only a couple of them have actually ceased laying for a month or more.
I dont remember about the ovaries, sorry. Just cant recall. I'll look at my pictures of the other necropsies and see if I see one of the ovaries.

***Nope, cant find a picture of the ovaries of any of these girls, at least in my photobucket album. The first time we did it, I know I didn't take pictures at all.

 

[mikarod]

See...lol...that's the thing.

A force molt is a bit different than a natural molt. In a force molt. You manually decrease the daylight hours. You keep them at about 8-9 hours of light...at most. This will cause their repro tracts to shut down for a time.

I wonder though...is there a possibility of you giving some folic acid to aid in the follicular development? It seems as though whatever is causing this, is either starting IN the follicles, or is blocking the follicles and then absorbing them.

 

[Parson's Wife]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Hope things straighten out quickly for you and your girls...
And that you lose no more.

 

[speckledhen]

A forced molt is definitely something I wont do. To me, that is the ultimate animal cruelty, to withhold food and water and light. We had a discussion on here about that not too long ago. Only commercial people do that and I'm definitely not going to. Some of my birds do stop laying for short periods, but most of the hatchery stock never stop laying for more than a day or two at a time. That's how they are bred, to keep producing.
I give them AviaCharge2000, a complete avian supplement, so you would think that has the proper nutrients for their bodies.