International Black Copper Marans Thread - Breeding to the SOP

[BlueTheBrahma]

So I'm introducing type and tail, and breeding back out the silver?

Yes exactly, you improve type with little cost to colour, in a minimum of 1 cross depending on your strategy.

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

So I'm introducing type and tail, and breeding back out the silver?

Since silver is sex linked, you don’t actually have to breed silver in, as it isn’t inherited by the females.
All the simple genes for colour will be the same in your pure BCMs as in the F1 pullets. There will be differences in the complicated AR and related dilator genes, but they are by definition coppers, with no silver gene.

As there is no silver gene bred into the females, you don’t have to worry about breeding it out unless you used a male from this cross.

 

[wrathsfarm]

I would recommend it if you fancy the work (not that it’s too much) and the Silvers have better type than the coppers. There’s a few ways it could work but I’ve outlined the simplest.

I’m happy to outline the plans in more detail.

Yes please do. This could really help my flock.

 

[wrathsfarm]

Since silver is sex linked, you don’t actually have to breed silver in, as it isn’t inherited by the females.
All the simple genes for colour will be the same in your pure BCMs as in the F1 pullets. There will be differences in the complicated AR and related dilator genes, but they are by definition coppers, with no silver gene.

As there is no silver gene bred into the females, you don’t have to worry about breeding it out unless you used a male from this cross.

I got lost there...but I'm screenshotting everything for my notes and to re read again.

 

[wrathsfarm]

@BlueTheBrahma ....I haven't posted many pics here as of late just to not muddy the thread too much and double post in multi threads unless is relevant. But if you want to see more I have this thread going I dump pics into... Would love it if you checked it out as I always value your insight, my friend.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/wraths-marans.1625296/

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

I got lost there...but I'm screenshotting everything for my notes and to re read again.

Yes I was worried I was explaining a simple point with too many words and making it seem complicated.

I appreciate that it still seems complicated to someone who hasn’t done all the research into genetics (which isn’t necessary most of the time).

I’ll draw some diagrams out so I don’t make it too technical word based.

Would you like to start a separate thread for me to highlight my ideas, use this thread or your personal marans thread?

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

@wrathsfarm this is a diagram off of the internet. It is how they produce sex link red layers, but the same genes interest us here. The hybrids are Columbian based but marans are the same deal but birchen based. Hens are either S/- (silver) or s+/- (gold).

(Hens are never S/s+ as they can only have one copy of this gene due to their chromosomes. This is why there is simply a dash (-) rather than a gene abbreviation)

When a gold male and silver hen are crossed, the hens can only inherit S or s+ from their father, meaning all the hens produced are gold. This will be the case with your marans, breeding the BSM with a BCM cock will result in only BCM hens. These hens can be treated as pure BCMs and bred to your other BCMs, though you’d want to keep track of them.

I hope this is a little clearer of an explanation of my central point, now there’s different ways you could use this to improve your BCMs.

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

BCMs are Black Copper Marans.

Are silvers BSMs (Black/Birchen Silver Marans) or SBMs (Silver Birchen Marans).

I know it’s arbitrary but I’ve realised that I used both, which one does everyone else use or does it not matter?

I feel BSM makes more sense when comparing to BCM, as the first letter can be changed for blues, splashes etc and the second letter can be changed for copper or silver. But I’ve mostly heard this colour called Silver Birchen, even though Coppers are not called Copper Birchen.

 

[wrathsfarm]

View attachment 3934036
@wrathsfarm this is a diagram off of the internet. It is how they produce sex link red layers, but the same genes interest us here. The hybrids are Columbian based but marans are the same deal but birchen based. Hens are either S/- (silver) or s+/- (gold).

(Hens are never S/s+ as they can only have one copy of this gene due to their chromosomes. This is why there is simply a dash (-) rather than a gene abbreviation)

When a gold male and silver hen are crossed, the hens can only inherit S or s+ from their father, meaning all the hens produced are gold. This will be the case with your marans, breeding the BSM with a BCM cock will result in only BCM hens. These hens can be treated as pure BCMs and bred to your other BCMs, though you’d want to keep track of them.

I hope this is a little clearer of an explanation of my central point, now there’s different ways you could use this to improve your BCMs.

The picture is confusing but you writing it out is much clearer.

Thanks

 

[wrathsfarm]

BCMs are Black Copper Marans.

Are silvers BSMs (Black/Birchen Silver Marans) or SBMs (Silver Birchen Marans).

I know it’s arbitrary but I’ve realised that I used both, which one does everyone else use or does it not matter?

I feel BSM makes more sense when comparing to BCM, as the first letter can be changed for blues, splashes etc and the second letter can be changed for copper or silver. But I’ve mostly heard this colour called Silver Birchen, even though Coppers are not called Copper Birchen.

I've seen it both ways also. Silver Blacks and Black Silvers...I don't know the actual correct.

For some reason I seem to think the correct is Silver Black but I don't know why...maybe just to make it different and it's own entity/variety from Black Copper I suppose. I always say Black Silver.

I could be way wrong, tho.

Edited to add...just thinking it seems that Black is always said first in everything related. Ie. Black Coppers- Black Tailed Reds, even BBS Black is first.

Just an observation.