International Black Copper Marans Thread - Breeding to the SOP

[Auntiejessi3]

@Auntiejessi3

I googled, Still don't mean it's true ...View attachment 4082882

All that makes sense, but this lady saying this gals birds are gold based because of "the white they are" makes no sense. I would think if they were gold based they would have a different appearance She hasn't hatched any chicks from them yet, but wants to this year. Do chicks hatch a different color or what? I'm quite curious, this is an area of genetics I'm not versed in, and I don't want her to be misinformed.

 

[Auntiejessi3]

Looking forward to learning...
IIRC...Bantambird said the blueish legs on Poppy ties in to him being Recessive.
If I got that correct, that may be a possible indicator when deciphering between a true Dominant White or not.

Can you post any pics of these birds in question? It may help.

These are the pics she sent, she's in college so not currently at home, these are pics from last year

 

[wrathsfarm]

These are the pics she sent, she's in college so not currently at home, these are pics from last year

I'm just guessing here, so don't read into as knowledge. I wonder if it's the yellowish pointing towards the gold based?

Edited... He looks nice type and tail wise, to me.

 

[chickengr]

I'm just guessing here, so don't read into as knowledge. I wonder if it's the yellowish pointing towards the gold based?

Edited... He looks nice type and tail wise, to me.

any white bird can get yellowish due to sunshine. I have silver fayoumis.

 

[Auntiejessi3]

any white bird can get yellowish due to sunshine. I have silver fayoumis.

I'm just guessing here, so don't read into as knowledge. I wonder if it's the yellowish pointing towards the gold based?

Edited... He looks nice type and tail wise, to me.

By the end of summer my light brahma and wtb both have a yellow tinge to their feathers. That's why I think that lady in FB is full of it

 

[Auntiejessi3]

All that makes sense, but this lady saying this gals birds are gold based because of "the white they are" makes no sense. I would think if they were gold based they would have a different appearance She hasn't hatched any chicks from them yet, but wants to this year. Do chicks hatch a different color or what? I'm quite curious, this is an area of genetics I'm not versed in, and I don't want her to be misinformed.

@BlueTheBrahma can you shed some light please

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

I’ve said before but for newer followers I’ll explain again, there are two main types of colour in chickens: ground colour and pattern colour. In honesty I feel they should be named the other way around but oh well.

Ground colour: the wild type is gold, autosomal red darkens it. Silver, the most common alternative allele, replaces gold ground colour white white, but autosomal red can still go over to make yellow/straws.

Pattern colour: the wild type is black, blue dilutes it and splash is a further dilution. Chocolate gives it a brown colour and (dominant) white replaces it with white (regardless of colour otherwise).

Lavender dilutes both.

The different patterns mostly stem from different arrangements of these two colours. E (extended black) birds are all pattern colour, e^wh hens are all ground colour (cocks are not). Columbian makes males and females all ground colour except for the tail and hackle stripes. Extended has complete ground colour, birchen has a bit of ground colour, then partridge, then duckwing, then wheaten have more in that order.

As silver and white, in their ideal form, are pure white, a white and silver bird of most patterns looks entirely white.

As far as I am aware, the best (aka most consistent) white marans are E/E, S/S and I/I, a very dominant combination. The thing is, the judges don’t do a dna test on them, they go off of looks. A well bred white marans based on gold can look indistinguishable from a silver based counterpart. For example, from my experience most white leghorns are gold based despite having no yellow in most examples.

It all lies in the complex genes like melanisers.

In theory, an extended black homozygous genotype should result in a phenotype with no ground colour at all, but this is rarely the case in males. Black often does a good job of hiding any ground colour that is inclined to show itself, but splash and white are less able to do this. Given the same situation, silver is better than gold here as it is white anyway, so blends in with white pattern colour. Gold leakage is more obvious against white.

But like I hinted at, melanisers change this. What they do is strengthen the inclination to replace red with black pigments, hiding more of the ground colour leakage. In this case, the gold and silver will be almost identical, as long as the melanisers are strong enough.

Autosomal red will make leakage stronger, requiring stronger or more melanisers to hide.

Even receive whites can have straw tinges so there are likely more genes that are not understood.

I know this is a lot of rambling so if it’s requested I’ll make some diagrams later. I hope it’s useful for now.

 

[Auntiejessi3]

I’ve said before but for newer followers I’ll explain again, there are two main types of colour in chickens: ground colour and pattern colour. In honesty I feel they should be named the other way around but oh well.

Ground colour: the wild type is gold, autosomal red darkens it. Silver, the most common alternative allele, replaces gold ground colour white white, but autosomal red can still go over to make yellow/straws.

Pattern colour: the wild type is black, blue dilutes it and splash is a further dilution. Chocolate gives it a brown colour and (dominant) white replaces it with white (regardless of colour otherwise).

Lavender dilutes both.

The different patterns mostly stem from different arrangements of these two colours. E (extended black) birds are all pattern colour, e^wh hens are all ground colour (cocks are not). Columbian makes males and females all ground colour except for the tail and hackle stripes. Extended has complete ground colour, birchen has a bit of ground colour, then partridge, then duckwing, then wheaten have more in that order.

As silver and white, in their ideal form, are pure white, a white and silver bird of most patterns looks entirely white.

As far as I am aware, the best (aka most consistent) white marans are E/E, S/S and I/I, a very dominant combination. The thing is, the judges don’t do a dna test on them, they go off of looks. A well bred white marans based on gold can look indistinguishable from a silver based counterpart. For example, from my experience most white leghorns are gold based despite having no yellow in most examples.

It all lies in the complex genes like melanisers.

In theory, an extended black homozygous genotype should result in a phenotype with no ground colour at all, but this is rarely the case in males. Black often does a good job of hiding any ground colour that is inclined to show itself, but splash and white are less able to do this. Given the same situation, silver is better than gold here as it is white anyway, so blends in with white pattern colour. Gold leakage is more obvious against white.

But like I hinted at, melanisers change this. What they do is strengthen the inclination to replace red with black pigments, hiding more of the ground colour leakage. In this case, the gold and silver will be almost identical, as long as the melanisers are strong enough.

Autosomal red will make leakage stronger, requiring stronger or more melanisers to hide.

Even receive whites can have straw tinges so there are likely more genes that are not understood.

I know this is a lot of rambling so if it’s requested I’ll make some diagrams later. I hope it’s useful for now.

I greatly appreciate this!

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

I greatly appreciate this!

Feel free to ask me to clarify any of the genetic terms. I thought I should add that I/I is dominant white and S/S is silver. I’ll find some pictures of my birds in a bit to illustrate different combinations. I can also do some drawings but in this case real examples might be better.

 

[Auntiejessi3]

Feel free to ask me to clarify any of the genetic terms. I thought I should add that I/I is dominant white and S/S is silver. I’ll find some pictures of my birds in a bit to illustrate different combinations. I can also do some drawings but in this case real examples might be better.

I have 1 dominant white bird, so I'm familiar with how that works. I was just asking for a gal I know who has White Marans and a lady on Facebook is trying to tell her that her birds are gold based just by "the kind of white" they are. It sounded completely wrong to me, that's why I asked. Will chicks from gold-based birds look different at hatch? I did notice I the pics she sent me that they have kind of blue hued/slate legs.