Inventions To Thank Pagans For

[PortageGirl]

I have WHAT in my yard? :

Debi is correct about some

Catholic priests trying to incorporate some local beliefs into their traditions at mass and other events. IMHO catholocism is the most pagan of the modern versions of christianity. Lots of mysticism and ritual.....

Errrr, I have to disagree here, it's more that it's held on to traditions the tightest, and kept the knowlege of doctrin and even using latin the longest so knowlege was tightly controlled in the hands of the higherarchy


Errrr, I have to disagree here, it's more that it's held on to their old traditions the tightest, and kept the knowledge of doctrine and even using Latin in the Mass for a long time, so everything was more of a mystery to the average member.

Knowledge was tightly controlled in the hands of the hierarchy of the church the longest, there was little actual study of the bible by members of the congregation in years past too, and everything was passed on through the priest. Members were not encouraged to study or interpret the bible for themselves, just listen to what the priest said it all meant. For the most part, other religions which were developed later conducted services in the language of the people longer. Things have changed, and are continuing to change, but it’s not happening very fast that’s for sure.

Once when I was visiting friends and attended church service with the family, and after services at a coffee klutch, a little old church lady type asked me where I was from and what church I normally attended. When I answered her, she said, “Oh, you’re one of them Cath –o-lics, yer all a bunch of pagans and idol worshipers!”

Thankfully, the minister of the church was nearby overheard, and seeing my discomfort he came over to tell her, “Oh now Mrs. Brown, you have to share our guest’s company with others! Mrs. Jones hasn’t met her yet!”

He kindly apologized etc, but it was quite a shock all the same. A lot of people are confused by the statues of the saints and prayers for intervention by saints. I guess it’s normal, but second nature to us Cath-o-lics!

//edit to add// I'm far from the BEST catholic, I actually often describe myself as a 'recovering Catholic' LOL and I respect priests and ministers of any religion who are considerate of the cultures of the people they serve.​

 

[Goose and Fig]

I have WHAT in my yard? :

Quote:
Or more like a "rebirth" of it. The Native Americans (and lots of others) were very in tune with the earth.
We get alot of lumber for our business from a Cherokee decendant that still uses sustainable harvesting practices that his grandfather taught him.

As for Catholicism- there are alot of traditions that overlap/infused with native ones, especially in the Southwest and Central and South America.

ETA: speaking of Redhen's question about "heathens", I THINK that term was used to describe the American Indians by the European settlers.

True, true, but while they used the term heathens - weren't they also technically pagans??

Yes, but I'm pretty sure they referred to them as heathens as an excuse for their slaughter. (including the Aztecs)
Heathens = non-believers, uncivilized, barbarians.....

 

[schellie69]

I think people use those types of words to describe people or cultures that they don't understand or are different then theirs.

I think some pagans actually used some of the same types of medicines that companies are now marketing as vitamins and supplements and pain killers such as aspirin (Bark of the willow tree)
I can't remember what culture it was that had made the 1st irrigation for crops.
and how to rotate fields was done by the native Americans I believe I might got goofed with another culture, but since the tribes camped at different spot each year when they would plant their crops go summer hunting then come back in the fall and harvest and the next year plant somewhere else. I know of some tribes that stayed in one place but a lot of tribes were nomads.

 

[deb1]

Quote:
True, true, but while they used the term heathens - weren't they also technically pagans??

Yes, but I'm pretty sure they referred to them as heathens as an excuse for their slaughter. (including the Aztecs)
Heathens = non-believers, uncivilized, barbarians.....

Some of the surronding tribes helped the Spanish take out the Aztecs because they weren't too thrilled with being potential human sacrifices.

THe Spanish were, for the most part, very cruel to the surviving natives though. The Aztecs honestly believed that the world would end without blood sacrife but how horrible for their captives.

 

[Goose and Fig]

Quote:
Yes, but I'm pretty sure they referred to them as heathens as an excuse for their slaughter. (including the Aztecs)
Heathens = non-believers, uncivilized, barbarians.....

Some of the surronding tribes helped the Spanish take out the Aztecs because they weren't too thrilled with being potential human sacrifices.

THe Spanish were, for the most part, very cruel to the surviving natives though. The Aztecs honestly believed that the world would end without blood sacrife but how horrible for their captives.

No- the Aztecs weren't that bad. It really isn't much different than the martyrs of other people/faiths. The Spanish came over to take all the gold in the name of the queen. They had horses and weapons never seen by the Aztecs. The natives didn't stand a chance. I should have used a different word- the Europeans commonly referred to natives as "savages."

 

[Goose and Fig]

Just for fun- courtesy of Mr. Neil Young:

He came dancing across the water
With his galleons and guns
Looking for the new world
In that palace in the sun
On the shore lay Montezuma
With his cocoa leaves and pearls
In his halls, he often wandered
With the secrets of the worlds
And his subjects gathered round him
Like the leaves around a tree
In their clothes of many colors
For the angry gods to see
And the women all were beautiful
And the men stood straight and strong
They offered life in sacrifice
So that others could go on
Hate was just a legend
And war was never known
The people worked together
And they lifted many stones
They carried them to the flatlands
And they died along the way
But they built up with their bare hands
What we still cant build today

that's just the "history" part of "Cortez the Killer"

 

[Blackbird]

Willow bark as medicine was first used by Native indigenous tribes.

The word heathen is much older than when America was discovered.

Obviously the term pagan has changed over time. It no longer means 'rural dwellers' although that is how it derived. And now it seems 'Heathen' religions and 'Pagan' religions mix and are often considered the same thing. Today Native and other indigenous tribal religions are sometimes known as 'Pagan religions' as well simply because of the differences compared to Christianity.

Whoever said that Witch has a wide range of meaning is right, as well as the term Pagan.

All depends on what you want to believe, really.

I do agree with PortageGirl though. I was raised Catholic, had been about 17 years. Catholics churches, in my experience, do not have many similarities or aspects that Paganism has. But Holidays have taken many Pagan traditions.

 

[Goose and Fig]

Catholics churches, in my experience, do not have many similarities or aspects that Paganism has. But Holidays have taken many Pagan traditions.

What about all the saints and their individual patronages?

The word heathen is much older than when America was discovered.

just using them as an example



12 years of Catholic School and an Irish immigrant family. Been there

 

[dacjohns]

This has been pretty interesting, especially all the little side trips.

From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

Main Entry: pa·gan
Pronunciation: \\ˈpâ-gən\\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix — more at pact
Date: 14th century
1 : heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

Main Entry: 1hea·then
Pronunciation: \\ˈhç-thən\\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English hethen, from Old English h¿̄then; akin to Old High German heidan heathen, and probably to Old English h¿̄th heath
Date: before 12th century
1 : of or relating to heathens, their religions, or their customs
2 : strange, uncivilized




Sorry formatting got messed up in the copy and paste.

 

[deb1]

Quote:
What about all the saints and their individual patronages?

The word heathen is much older than when America was discovered.

just using them as an example



12 years of Catholic School and an Irish immigrant family. Been there

HIJACK ALERT!!!

Just clarifying cause I am a nerd.

In case anyone wants information overload on the Catholic Church and saints:

Catholics believe that the process of sanctification takes time. Just being a Christian doesn't mean that you are a perfect person. After death, a person still might need sanctification-to be cleaned of faults like envy and jealousy. Let's face it, if Christianity was true(and I believe it is) then who would want to enter God's presence still p.oed at their mom or suffering from alcoholism? People who are in purgatory will eventually be in heaven. Once you are in heaven, you are a saint. The Catholic Church believes that some people do advance far enough in the sanctification process to enter the presence of God immediately upon death. Those are the people that we know of as saints. The Church does not claim to know everyone who is in heaven-that is one of the purposes of All Saints Day.

In the early years of the Church some old Gods were encoporated as Saints but the Church has tried to push those out. Today the criteria for being declared a Saint is actually very strict.

Some nonCatholic Christians mistakenly think that Catholics 'worship' the saints or Mary. Deep reverence is probably a better word for what Catholics are supposed to give to the Saints. I am in the southeast USA so I have to constantly tell my Baptist friends that bowing or praying to(asking) is not worship. Worship is much deeper.

Sorry, I got that crazy convert zealouness and just general nerdiness that makes me love to discuss certain issues. I am not disagreeing or agreeing with you, just making some points so people don't get confused.

Also, you just hit a subject that I like to talk about.