Is it wise to attempt a 1h45 trip to the vet ?

[Kiki]

The vet called me back, and I'm left with another interesting ethical decision to make. They found yolk inside Caramel, it was an internal laying that must have happened quite some times ago for her to have been in respiratory distress from it.

The vet says they can do an abdominal enema and then sterilize her, but she is not completely sure that Caramel will survive the operation. It means anesthesia and opening her up, and she says ovarian tissue is very diffuse in layer hens.
Or we can take her home with antibiotics, but this very likely means letting her go. We took her too late to the vet to have her simply heal on antibiotics and eventually implanted.

I am so sorry. It is highly unlikely Caramel will survive either way. When birds start laying internally and infection takes over it's almost not possible to cure.

By the time a chicken starts showing obvious signs of illness it's already almost too late to start antibiotics so please don't beat yourself up about the timing.


Keeping your flock on a well balanced diet will help prevent these type issues. If you feed treats now would be a good time to reevaluate their diet.

 

[MaryJanet]

I am so sorry. It is highly unlikely Caramel will survive either way. When birds start laying internally and infection takes over it's almost not possible to cure.

By the time a chicken starts showing obvious signs of illness it's already almost too late to start antibiotics so please don't beat yourself up about the timing.


Keeping your flock on a well balanced diet will help prevent these type issues. If you feed treats now would be a good time to reevaluate their diet.

Kiki, I'm a little unsure about the connection between diet and reproductive health. Would you have time to unpack that connection a little for me?

 

[BY Bob]

Well, no good news. I just got out of the clinic, the radiography showed that her abdomen is full of liquid. She was so hyperventilating when we got there that the vet said she would wait for several hours before punctioning the liquid, and they will keep her for a few days depending on if she survives and what they see after punctioning her. It could be ascites or cancer, but could maybe be just an infection.
She may not make it, or they may put her to sleep, but the vet said that they will try to give her a chance if it's only infectious, and that anyway she wasn't in a state to make the trip back home just now.

So it's no use having regrets now, but my choice to take her to the vet will very likely turn out to have been the wrong one for Caramel.

I am so very sorry to hear that.

 

[BY Bob]

it is just not fair at all that their lives are so short....they live long enough to secure their place in our heart...then leave a huge hole there when they pass.

Well Said

 

[BY Bob]

@ManueB It is very difficult to make a decision like this. I would recommend that you discuss it openly and frankly with your partner. If there is any good news it does feel like there is no wrong decision here whatever the outcome.

From my experience with hens bred to be heavy layers, production breeds, it is the rare hen that lives to 3 years old. Laying problems usually claim them way before their time. As others have said, chickens are experts at hiding illness. The combination has led you to this point. It is no failing of yours. Please do not blame yourself.

At this point, make the best decision you can make, prepare yourself as best you can for any outcome, and rest well knowing you have done all that anyone could have done for her.

 

[micstrachan]

Oh gosh, I am so sorry about this news. For what it’s worth, I had a young hen with yolk in her abdomen that had gotten infected (egg yolk peritonitis). She was full of yolky fluid, and was on the brink of death. The avian vet drained her, lavaged her coelom (without opening her up or putting her under), and put her on anti-inflammatories and antibiotics. Afterward, she also went on an implant.

She got another six months. She was weak for part of that time, but also had some happy time. I agree that your girl will eventually succumb, so it’s up to you how far you want to take it at this point.

I think if she were mine, I’d have her euthanized, but I can very much relate to the attempt to give her one last hurrah before she goes. I ended up intervening too long with a hen with cancer because she had a tremendous will to live. At least she did eventually pass at home surrounded by her friends.

Please know, whatever decision you make, to treat or euthanize or to treat and let her go at home, or something else, we are here to support you.

If you go the treatment route, please ask/insist the vet prescribe a heavy duty antibiotic like enrofloxacin. Most avian vets will no longer prescribe it, but you can ask and let them know you’d be willing to sign something saying you will not consume her or her eggs.

Thinking of you. Please let us know what you decide.

 

[micstrachan]

Kiki, I'm a little unsure about the connection between diet and reproductive health. Would you have time to unpack that connection a little for me?

MJ, Kiki has been saying this for years, and in all honesty, it used to annoy me to some degree (sorry, Kiki.) However, I believe she is right, especially for confined birds (though @ManueB lets them mostly free range, right?)

My understanding is that the delicate nutritional balance gets interrupted with treats. This can lead to soft eggshells, obesity, etc. I already know from experience how easy it is for chickens to get too fat. I have been absolutely shocked about the fatty livers in my flock, even though I thought I was giving minimal treats. I think it’s more about the combination of them being confined, so not getting enough exercise, and having unlimited access to feed, even though I do free range them every day after work and almost all day most weekend days. I guess I’m sort of preaching to the choir with you, as you have extensive experience with liver disease in chickens.

Anyway, back to diet and reproductive health. I think it mostly comes down to too much body fat. If they have too much fat, it can be more difficult for them to pass eggs, which can lead to internal laying, reverse peristalsis, and other issues. I am sorry I do not have any good scientific articles to quote on this at the moment, but I feel pretty confident that I read it. Having said that, I do think there might be more to it. I don’t understand how I can see other friends on BYC give way, way, way more treats than I do, but their chickens don’t seem to suffer from fatty liver. Perhaps there’s an environmental component, as well.

In this particular case, I believe it’s more due to her being an ex batt, but who knows for sure.

Who is it who loves to search articles for us? Is it @RoyalChick? @bgmathteach
? I don’t have the time right now, but would like to understand it all better myself.

 

[MaryJanet]

MJ, Kiki has been saying this for years, and in all honesty, it used to annoy me to some degree (sorry, Kiki.) However, I believe she is right, especially for confined birds (though @ManueB lets them mostly free range, right?)

My understanding is that the delicate nutritional balance gets interrupted with treats. This can lead to soft eggshells, obesity, etc. I already know from experience how easy it is for chickens to get too fat. I have been absolutely shocked about the fatty livers in my flock, even though I thought I was giving minimal treats. I think it’s more about the combination of them being confined, so not getting enough exercise, and having unlimited access to feed, even though I do free range them every day after work and almost all day most weekend days. I guess I’m sort of preaching to the choir with you, as you have extensive experience with liver disease in chickens.

Anyway, back to diet and reproductive health. I think it mostly comes down to too much body fat. If they have too much fat, it can be more difficult for them to pass eggs, which can lead to internal laying, reverse peristalsis, and other issues. I am sorry I do not have any good scientific articles to quote on this at the moment, but I feel pretty confident that I read it. Having said that, I do think there might be more to it. I don’t understand how I can see other friends on BYC give way, way, way more treats than I do, but their chickens don’t seem to suffer from fatty liver. Perhaps there’s an environmental component, as well.

In this particular case, I believe it’s more due to her being an ex batt, but who knows for sure.

Who is it who loves to search articles for us? Is it @RoyalChick? @bgmathteach
? I don’t have the time right now, but would like to understand it all better myself.

Thanks Michelle.

So the wrong nutrients causes poor shells and being overweight effects the reproductive process. And a belly full of treats doesn't have room for healthy food.

Have I caught on to the main points?

 

[Perris]

This thread is derailing

 

[MaryJanet]

This thread is derailing

Sorry! My fault.