I agree, it will be at a standstill for the next 2 years at least. This is what we don't need. Too many people will loose everything if this recession doesn't lift NOW.
Just checked out the election results...
- Thread starter Q9
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #52
You know, one good thing that could come from this is a serious case of gridlock.
I don't have time or will to dig up "facts..ie others opinions, that they are paid to give"...
But I can express my opinion on opinions..... There is no right or wrong, until the reality plays out, and still the outcome is only opinion based on consensus of a group. The larger the group that shares the opinion or belief, makes that opinion appear more real and more like a fact. Hence, Various religions are real to the participants, but not real to those of other groups..
This phenomena, of group belief or opinion, can lead to great things, it can also lead to terrible things...
I actually find it fascinating that we each have the capability to believe as fact just about anything we want... The human brain, and this genetic wiring is interesting indeed! I wonder why we have this feature in our genetic code.?
I see it as a tool to learn? Some survival mechanism.. (Get more people in your tribe?)
Regardless... I do enjoy intelligent debate!
ON
But I can express my opinion on opinions..... There is no right or wrong, until the reality plays out, and still the outcome is only opinion based on consensus of a group. The larger the group that shares the opinion or belief, makes that opinion appear more real and more like a fact. Hence, Various religions are real to the participants, but not real to those of other groups..
This phenomena, of group belief or opinion, can lead to great things, it can also lead to terrible things...
I actually find it fascinating that we each have the capability to believe as fact just about anything we want... The human brain, and this genetic wiring is interesting indeed! I wonder why we have this feature in our genetic code.?
I see it as a tool to learn? Some survival mechanism.. (Get more people in your tribe?)
Regardless... I do enjoy intelligent debate!
ON
Why does the economic argument have to be framed as Keynes against von Mises? For one thing this ideology is NOT what either party are actually doing anyway. So, just drop them, they're false flags.
Look at the neo-liberal economics as practiced by the neo-cons for the last 30 years. People let the terminology neo-liberal and neo-cons confuse them. Neo-liberal economics is about "liberating" the market. Most of what they've done rests on the laurels of Ayn Rand, not Mises anyway. And much of it has a bizarrely twisted view of human nature.
The frameworks give people a means of arguing, not a method of solving. What have is not working - what we need are NEW ideas not rehashed old ones.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1087742888040457650#
Look at the neo-liberal economics as practiced by the neo-cons for the last 30 years. People let the terminology neo-liberal and neo-cons confuse them. Neo-liberal economics is about "liberating" the market. Most of what they've done rests on the laurels of Ayn Rand, not Mises anyway. And much of it has a bizarrely twisted view of human nature.
The frameworks give people a means of arguing, not a method of solving. What have is not working - what we need are NEW ideas not rehashed old ones.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1087742888040457650#
Quote:
- Mar 27, 2009
- 974
- 1
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Quote:
Ain't no party like a California party, as they say.
At least I think they say that. I've never been one of the cool kids.
Ain't no party like a California party, as they say.
At least I think they say that. I've never been one of the cool kids.
- Thread starter
- #57
I have WHAT in my yard? :
Why does the economic argument have to be framed as Keynes against von Mises? For one thing this ideology is NOT what either party are actually doing anyway. So, just drop them, they're false flags.
Look at the neo-liberal economics as practiced by the neo-cons for the last 30 years. People let the terminology neo-liberal and neo-cons confuse them. Neo-liberal economics is about "liberating" the market. Most of what they've done rests on the laurels of Ayn Rand, not Mises anyway. And much of it has a bizarrely twisted view of human nature.
The frameworks give people a means of arguing, not a method of solving. What have is not working - what we need are NEW ideas not rehashed old ones.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1087742888040457650#
Both Republicans and Democrats have been buying Keynes' bull for a LONG time now. That's why we're in this mess. As for your "neo-liberal" economics, you really need to study history better. We have been kneeling at the altar of Keynes' discredited theories since at least 1913 - when the Monster From Jekyll Island was born. Personally, I think that before ANYTHING else, that monster must be destroyed.
Why does the economic argument have to be framed as Keynes against von Mises? For one thing this ideology is NOT what either party are actually doing anyway. So, just drop them, they're false flags.
Look at the neo-liberal economics as practiced by the neo-cons for the last 30 years. People let the terminology neo-liberal and neo-cons confuse them. Neo-liberal economics is about "liberating" the market. Most of what they've done rests on the laurels of Ayn Rand, not Mises anyway. And much of it has a bizarrely twisted view of human nature.
The frameworks give people a means of arguing, not a method of solving. What have is not working - what we need are NEW ideas not rehashed old ones.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1087742888040457650#
Both Republicans and Democrats have been buying Keynes' bull for a LONG time now. That's why we're in this mess. As for your "neo-liberal" economics, you really need to study history better. We have been kneeling at the altar of Keynes' discredited theories since at least 1913 - when the Monster From Jekyll Island was born. Personally, I think that before ANYTHING else, that monster must be destroyed.
I have WHAT in my yard? :
Why does the economic argument have to be framed as Keynes against von Mises? For one thing this ideology is NOT what either party are actually doing anyway. So, just drop them, they're false flags.
Look at the neo-liberal economics as practiced by the neo-cons for the last 30 years. People let the terminology neo-liberal and neo-cons confuse them. Neo-liberal economics is about "liberating" the market. Most of what they've done rests on the laurels of Ayn Rand, not Mises anyway. And much of it has a bizarrely twisted view of human nature.
The frameworks give people a means of arguing, not a method of solving. What have is not working - what we need are NEW ideas not rehashed old ones.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1087742888040457650#
Everyone should read Rand. And then each person should be required to work in customer service/retail/front-of-house food service for 3 years and live only on the money she/he earns. So say I.
Why does the economic argument have to be framed as Keynes against von Mises? For one thing this ideology is NOT what either party are actually doing anyway. So, just drop them, they're false flags.
Look at the neo-liberal economics as practiced by the neo-cons for the last 30 years. People let the terminology neo-liberal and neo-cons confuse them. Neo-liberal economics is about "liberating" the market. Most of what they've done rests on the laurels of Ayn Rand, not Mises anyway. And much of it has a bizarrely twisted view of human nature.
The frameworks give people a means of arguing, not a method of solving. What have is not working - what we need are NEW ideas not rehashed old ones.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1087742888040457650#
Everyone should read Rand. And then each person should be required to work in customer service/retail/front-of-house food service for 3 years and live only on the money she/he earns. So say I.
I didnt think polictical rambleing where permitted on BYC. I guess I was wrong so I might as well put in my 2cents.
A lot of blame for everything is pointed toward the current President, whomever that might be. This is and always has been 100% wrong. You always hear how the President did this or that when in fact he has no power to do any of it. Fact one, The President has never written or voted on one single law, not in over 200 years. Congress writes the laws and votes on them. All the President can do is either sign the Bill into law or Veto it entirely. Certainly a legitmate argument for giving the President line item vetoing power. State Governors have this power, why not the President of the US. Most of the out of control spending is written into otherwise good Bills and laws in the form of porkbarrel spending. Give the President Line Item Veto and a lot of that Pork could go out the window and back into the Treasury.
Tax reform is certainly something we all could benefit from. Many wish to tax the rich into proverty while spending tax dollars foolishly. Entitlement programs are out of control, but the fix isnt raising taxes or taxing one groupe of people unfairly. You want to fix Medicare, stop giving handouts to people that shouldnt be getting them. Every go to a medical clinic and try to get healthcare. Plenty of illegals getting free health care, but if you are a legal resident, you had better either have good insurance or a big check book. This is plain wrong, I dont care how liberal you are. We didnt invite the illegals here and the fact they are here illegaly means they are not covered by our Consitution and are not entitled to any of the benefits as a American Citizen. Cut out the free benefits to non legals and watch Medicare and Medicaid stop bleeding funds.
The same can be said for Social Security, get those that dont deserve off the rolls and watch how benefits can improve for those that do deserve.
You want to fix the economy and grow jobs. First look at what caused the decline in jobs and the flood of imports into this country. In spite of The perdictions of Ross Pero of a gret sucking sound as jobs would be shipped overseas, Clinton still signed NAFTA into law. I remember when the law passed, My wife was working at a Sewing Mill. The very Next week after Nafta Passed, she recieved a layoff notice saying the plant was moving operation to Mexico. She then went to work for Levi's and worked there for a couple of years until Levis shut down all sewing operation in North America. Again the jobs went to Mexico. This didnt end there. Clinto signed the Free trade act and Gave China Favorite Trading Status. Bingo, the jobs quickly started leaving Mexico and moving to China. The SouthAmerican population lost Thousands of factories, and the jobs that go with them, and then started coming to the US in search of work. Hence our illegal Alien problem was founded. It didnt stop there, Clinton also established a free trade zone where foriegn companies could bring into the US, the goods being made overseas. This must of been what Clinton meant when he said Free Trade, but it doesnt work both ways. China, Japan, Korea, India, Pakistan, Russia, and almost every other country dont allow the American made products to be imported into their countries thru trade free tax zones, noway, in some cases the cost of import is actually a 100% markup in the cost of the goods, and in many cases as much as 400% Markup. So much for free trade. All of this makes American goods to expensive to purchase in other countries. Its no wonder Our trade deficit is so large. Did you know that a full 10% of our trade deficit with China can be traced thru one company. Want to guess which one. Yep, WalMart. Want to know why General Motors and Chrysler had to have a goverment bailout. Foriegn car companies building parts in other countries, importing those parts without taxation. GM and Chrysler dont get to take advantage of those same tax free trade zones, so natually cost are higher. Fact, not fiction. Economics 101, You cant compete if your cost are higher than your competition.
Now how do we get those business and the jobs they provide back onto US Soil. Its very simple, instead of taxing Corporation 35%, ( it will be 39.6% if the Bush tax cuts are allowed to expire). Do away with the tax altogether. Instead of driving companies and jobs overseas, this would encourage them to reinvest in America, in fact make it a law that instead of paying a coporate tax, every company should reinvest that amount of money they would have paid as a tax, back into their company inside the boundries of the United States. That Reinvestment would mean more building and construction, more research and development and many thousands of new jobs. The more people working means more people buying and more people able to get off of the many entitlement programs that are already draining our Treasury. It would also mean many more people paying income taxes and that amount of tax would more than offset the money lost by not taxing corporation. Cut out the Taxfree trade zones, charge import taxes similar to what the exporting country charges us to recieve our goods. Impose a coporate tax on any foriegn owned company that doesnt reinvest profits back into American jobs. Tax any profits that are sent out of American to other Foriegn countries, before the money leaves American soil. This would include stockholder dividends of foreign stock holders of American companies.
I could go on for pages, but the bottom line is, this problem didnt start with Bush, and it aint going to end with Obama. In fact a reasonable argument could be made that the changes that took effect while Clinton was in office, is what started this downhill senerio of joblessness and out of control gorvernment spending. It just took awhile for the results of his actions to manifest themselfs. I know that statement is going to cause a big stir with all you Clinton supporters out there. But it is what it is, I voted for Ross. But until some of the laws written during Clintons 2 terms are reviewed and rewritten, I cant see this vicious economy getting any better.
A lot of blame for everything is pointed toward the current President, whomever that might be. This is and always has been 100% wrong. You always hear how the President did this or that when in fact he has no power to do any of it. Fact one, The President has never written or voted on one single law, not in over 200 years. Congress writes the laws and votes on them. All the President can do is either sign the Bill into law or Veto it entirely. Certainly a legitmate argument for giving the President line item vetoing power. State Governors have this power, why not the President of the US. Most of the out of control spending is written into otherwise good Bills and laws in the form of porkbarrel spending. Give the President Line Item Veto and a lot of that Pork could go out the window and back into the Treasury.
Tax reform is certainly something we all could benefit from. Many wish to tax the rich into proverty while spending tax dollars foolishly. Entitlement programs are out of control, but the fix isnt raising taxes or taxing one groupe of people unfairly. You want to fix Medicare, stop giving handouts to people that shouldnt be getting them. Every go to a medical clinic and try to get healthcare. Plenty of illegals getting free health care, but if you are a legal resident, you had better either have good insurance or a big check book. This is plain wrong, I dont care how liberal you are. We didnt invite the illegals here and the fact they are here illegaly means they are not covered by our Consitution and are not entitled to any of the benefits as a American Citizen. Cut out the free benefits to non legals and watch Medicare and Medicaid stop bleeding funds.
The same can be said for Social Security, get those that dont deserve off the rolls and watch how benefits can improve for those that do deserve.
You want to fix the economy and grow jobs. First look at what caused the decline in jobs and the flood of imports into this country. In spite of The perdictions of Ross Pero of a gret sucking sound as jobs would be shipped overseas, Clinton still signed NAFTA into law. I remember when the law passed, My wife was working at a Sewing Mill. The very Next week after Nafta Passed, she recieved a layoff notice saying the plant was moving operation to Mexico. She then went to work for Levi's and worked there for a couple of years until Levis shut down all sewing operation in North America. Again the jobs went to Mexico. This didnt end there. Clinto signed the Free trade act and Gave China Favorite Trading Status. Bingo, the jobs quickly started leaving Mexico and moving to China. The SouthAmerican population lost Thousands of factories, and the jobs that go with them, and then started coming to the US in search of work. Hence our illegal Alien problem was founded. It didnt stop there, Clinton also established a free trade zone where foriegn companies could bring into the US, the goods being made overseas. This must of been what Clinton meant when he said Free Trade, but it doesnt work both ways. China, Japan, Korea, India, Pakistan, Russia, and almost every other country dont allow the American made products to be imported into their countries thru trade free tax zones, noway, in some cases the cost of import is actually a 100% markup in the cost of the goods, and in many cases as much as 400% Markup. So much for free trade. All of this makes American goods to expensive to purchase in other countries. Its no wonder Our trade deficit is so large. Did you know that a full 10% of our trade deficit with China can be traced thru one company. Want to guess which one. Yep, WalMart. Want to know why General Motors and Chrysler had to have a goverment bailout. Foriegn car companies building parts in other countries, importing those parts without taxation. GM and Chrysler dont get to take advantage of those same tax free trade zones, so natually cost are higher. Fact, not fiction. Economics 101, You cant compete if your cost are higher than your competition.
Now how do we get those business and the jobs they provide back onto US Soil. Its very simple, instead of taxing Corporation 35%, ( it will be 39.6% if the Bush tax cuts are allowed to expire). Do away with the tax altogether. Instead of driving companies and jobs overseas, this would encourage them to reinvest in America, in fact make it a law that instead of paying a coporate tax, every company should reinvest that amount of money they would have paid as a tax, back into their company inside the boundries of the United States. That Reinvestment would mean more building and construction, more research and development and many thousands of new jobs. The more people working means more people buying and more people able to get off of the many entitlement programs that are already draining our Treasury. It would also mean many more people paying income taxes and that amount of tax would more than offset the money lost by not taxing corporation. Cut out the Taxfree trade zones, charge import taxes similar to what the exporting country charges us to recieve our goods. Impose a coporate tax on any foriegn owned company that doesnt reinvest profits back into American jobs. Tax any profits that are sent out of American to other Foriegn countries, before the money leaves American soil. This would include stockholder dividends of foreign stock holders of American companies.
I could go on for pages, but the bottom line is, this problem didnt start with Bush, and it aint going to end with Obama. In fact a reasonable argument could be made that the changes that took effect while Clinton was in office, is what started this downhill senerio of joblessness and out of control gorvernment spending. It just took awhile for the results of his actions to manifest themselfs. I know that statement is going to cause a big stir with all you Clinton supporters out there. But it is what it is, I voted for Ross. But until some of the laws written during Clintons 2 terms are reviewed and rewritten, I cant see this vicious economy getting any better.
- Thread starter
- #60
It's actually my position that the mess began in 1913 - founding of the Federal Reserve.
You're right, we can't blame Obama or Bush. We CAN blame the Fed, corporatists, and Congress, however.
You're right, we can't blame Obama or Bush. We CAN blame the Fed, corporatists, and Congress, however.
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