Kraienkoeppe Thread!

[mcrooke45]

This is the cockerel I am going to breed from. I like his stance and longer legs better than the much more mottled one I have. I had to remove the other cockerel because he kept tearing the tail feathers out of this one.


My birds are 6 months old now I I hope they start laying soon. My incubator is ready!
Mark

 

[mcrooke45]

Here is the mottled one.

 

[mcrooke45]

Every time I go to take pictures of my silvers, the cockerels always sticks their tails up. I caught one by surprise.

 

[mcrooke45]

Daniel,
Have you raised many of the malay bantams you got from Doc? How do they lay?

 

[DTchickens]

Daniel,
Have you raised many of the malay bantams you got from Doc? How do they lay?

I only have one bird from Doc, a stag. I didn't really intend to breed them, I just wanted a cock to cross into the Kraienköppe and opted for the Malay bantam stag for a few reasons. First reason is size, I figured a large Malay cock would be too large for the hens possibly resulting in a injury as can happen with big birds and it can sometimes play an effect on fertility if too great of a size difference. I was told the Malay bantam line has an issue of being too large so crossing them with the Kraienköppe may possibly help in increasing the size and perhaps type as well; I've been told before Malay and Kraienköppe type is different, but I read a old APA Malay standard (given that I don't have an APA book because I haven't had any breeds except the OEGB I used to raise that were recognized other than the Shamo which I didn't want to follow the APA on) and compared to the Dutch Kraienköppe standard to find a lot of similarities; I've also got the German Kraienköppe standard now thanks to some German contacts.

I did this also because of the low egg laying capabilities Oriental hens, especially Malay, are known for. Another reason is the Kraienköppe cockerels not being very game I was afraid a game hen his size (or possibly larger) would injure him/render him incapable of breeding. I actually have seen one of my Shamo hens run off a full grown cock that was not game before so a Malay would be no different.

Another point is general belief of a lot of breeders are, the hens are the type. Meaning a Oriental cock over a Leghorn hen will produce Leghon typed fowl (though they will have some Oriental characteristics no doubt), Leghorn cock over Oriental hen will produced offspring more closely typed to Orientals "supposedly". It has proven true for me at least in my experiences. So a Malay cock will influence type in areas such as comb, leg color, perhaps small wattle/earlobes, color, and so on of course.. But the offspring should generally be more like a Kraienköpp coming from the hens while also being better layers/able to breed more hens to the stag and produce more offspring than one Malay hen inabling me to cull more severely hopefully speeding along the process. Malay are also part of the Kraienköppes heritage, so it makes me feel better I'm not adding any foreign blood so to speak. Right now the young stag was right at 5 pounds (I think something like 4lb 12 1/2oz last I weighed earlier this year) which isn't too far under the Kraienköppe weight range (5.5-6.6 pounds in cocks). Hopefully he'll help in throwing larger birds if mine happen to be too small, I plan to weigh every one of them once they get good size to check if the average 3-4 pound weights are right.

I can't answer on how well his bantams lay, you'll have to ask him about that. But nonetheless, the little stag is a awesome little guy in personality. If I suggested anyones Malay bantams to anyone out of the stock I have seen I vote Doc's birds even if as he said at one point on the other forum that their tails can be a bit high (as my stags is, which I am hoping will help in the Kraienköppe type).

God bless,
Daniel.

 

[mcrooke45]

I saw your pics of him on the other forum. He should give your BBRs some good type out of the chicks since malays were used in the development of the kraienkoppe. That also might get rid of the white ear lobes on your birds. One of my BBR cockerels has the white ear lobes and also has a pea comb. I am not going to use him in breeding. I would love to see pictures of the cross when you hatch some. I like the upright stance of the orientals. I am going to breed my birds in that direction. The young silver cockerel I am going to breed from has a good stance. One of my BBR cockerels has a good upright stance ( the one I have pictures of) the other one is more horizontal. I thought about adding some malay to my birds but they are so hard to find and when you do find them they are very expensive. I also thought about crossing my birds with some silver duckwing OEG and develop a bantam form of kraienkoppe from that. They are very similar in type. It should not be hard. The walnut comb is dominant. I would have to work on lowering the tail stance. I will prob use AI to breed them, like you said earlier, the larger cockerel could hurt the much smaller hens. I used to breed bantam cochins years ago and that is the method I used because I was having fertility problems.
Mark

 

[mcrooke45]

My BBR cockerel resembles a malay. If only his neck was longer.


He has just a dab of white in his ears. It might come out when he gets older.


My pea comb cockerel.

 

[DTchickens]

My BBR cockerel resembles a malay. If only his neck was longer.


He has just a dab of white in his ears. It might come out when he gets older.


My pea comb cockerel.

Your bird does have some white, but seems to be mostly red earlobed so he might still make a decent brood cock when bred to red earlobed hens. I had intended on not using any white earlobed roosters/hens, but given that I've narrowed it down to two cockerels and I'm not sure they will be red earlobed I've started looking up earlobe genetics to find out exactly how dominant the white ears could be as I was always told they were dominant. I ran across this, http://www.genetics.org/content/13/6/470.full.pdf which seems to state that neither are more dominant than the other at least in the crosses used. I found it interesting that some breeds appeared to be more dominant than others, if you read the studies you'll notice that the Rhode Island Red crosses seemed to produce more red earlobed fowl than any of the others.

I figure if they are all white earlobed (the cockerels) I will try picking the red earlobed hens and working primarily with the Malay this year, I've even been thinking of lighting birds (something I've never done) to have a longer season and raise more birds to pick from. But, given that white earlobes aren't as dominant I thought of maybe picking the best typed cockerel just to try it and see.. But given that the hens being Kraienköppe and more than likely carry the white earlobed gene I'm expecting a majority of white earlobed offspring from it.

 

[chickletteSarge]

Im glad i didnt jump into this breed before i learned about them! I only have seen them come from 2 hatcheries and i was going to get some from Ideal before DW denied my request. IM SO GLAD DHE DID! I had no idea about the comb or earlobes!
DT, do you plan on selling any breeder stock in the years to come? I would love to own and breed these beautiful fowl!

 

[DTchickens]

Im glad i didnt jump into this breed before i learned about them! I only have seen them come from 2 hatcheries and i was going to get some from Ideal before DW denied my request. IM SO GLAD DHE DID! I had no idea about the comb or earlobes!
DT, do you plan on selling any breeder stock in the years to come? I would love to own and breed these beautiful fowl!

Chicklette, if/when I have any available I would be glad to sell some in the coming years. Really given the small majority of breeders and difficulty of finding good stock in years to come when I have something to offer I'd like if many of the breeders were willing to trade stock; I think such a move would help in the improvement of the lines and instead of using hatchery stock you'll be able to see the actual bird you're getting; you would have the knowledge that the individual you're getting them from has been breeding against the same things you have (white ears, single/pea combs, white legs, etc); and truthfully spend less money in the long run as you don't have to pay the price of chick rearing for 20-30 birds (or more) only to get one that is what you want.


God bless,
Daniel.

P.S. On the OEGB X Kraienköppe, you may not have the bring the tail down too much truthfully. The standard calls for the tail on a Kraienköpp to be "pronounced", German standard calls for it to be "obtuse" (which is a term I do not like, I think that can be interpreted in many different ways to mean a tail carriage about horizontal or one that would be nearly squirrel tailed when paired with the upright stance of the Kraienköppe. But I believe it references to being carried about horizontally, I have only ever seen one Kraienköppe with a decently high tail in their "homeland" and even then it was not one of the best examples I have been given of them; to me it looked like it had been heavily graded with a OEG or some other type of bankiva fowl). OEGB have varying degrees of tail sets even within the given strains, excellent show birds in that breed will throw all kinds of birds sometimes, low wing carriages, high tails, very low tails, and tails about horizontal carriage.