Landrace/adaptive breeding discussion

[LaurenRitz]

Yeah, I have to go into the coop after dark. No way I would catch them otherwise, unless they're sick.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Imprinting has definitely been overlooked as a factor for human aggression, but I don't think it's the only one. That's just me speculating, however. So far, all of the broody raised males I've had (not many, and some didn't stay for long) were not human aggressive

I have a much more hands on approach to brooding than you. Still, my birds also fear me from day one. The broody raised birds are even wilder. I've never been able to touch them

I definitely wouldn’t think that imprinting is the only factor. I don’t even think that human aggression is a monolithic phenomenon. I suspect there are different kinds and levels of human aggression that arise from different causes.

The sort of human aggression I think
of as the kind that’s likely from imprinting is crazed and uncorrectable. Where the rooster is treating the human as a rival rooster. To teach the rooster to stop is to teach it to never challenge a rival, which may not be possible once a rooster with that proclivity is mature.

I’ve seen a different kind of aggression from some of my oriental gamefowl that is correctable and I think that isn’t coming from imprinting at all. They can be demanding for food and attack when they see food in my hand that I’m denying them. Usually that’s a biting-type aggression.

One of my orientals flogged me half-heartedly when I entered his coop while back wearing all red. I smacked him and he’s never done it again, even if I enter in the same red clothes. Whatever triggered him that day, I don’t think it was imprinting.

 

[LaurenRitz]

Mine have all been rival-rooster type. I was able to (I think) correct it with the first roo. At least, it had been about 5 months without an attack when I found him another home. I still have the scars, and I'm not going to put up with that again.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Mine have all been rival-rooster type. I was able to (I think) correct it with the first roo. At least, it had been about 5 months without an attack when I found him another home. I still have the scars, and I'm not going to put up with that again.

5 months is a long time for one to go without an attack. The bad ones I’ve had never could go more than 2 or 3 days after I administered a beatdown to them before they were ready to go again.

It would also make sense to me that poor eyesight would be a factor in human aggression. Imagine a rooster that sees the world as a blur. It would be a lot easier for a human leg to look like a rival in that circumstance.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I lack for experience with aggressive Roos. We've only had one. He flogged me, protecting his girls. I give him a (one time) pass and a hard put down.

He flogged my wife bringing food to the flock while I was shopping.

I gave him a trip to freezer camp when I got home.

 

[No Coop No Problem]

It's good there's finally a general thread on this stuff. Lots of people seem to be working on somewhat similar landrace projects

I personally have around 100 free-range chickens that live outside 24/7 and sleep in trees. They've been doing this for 3 years now, whole co-habitating with a den of foxes on the same land in addition to a variety of other predators over the years

In my experience it's not hard to breed chickens capable of surviving in a suitable environment. Quality genetics in a quality environment will produce a fit landrace very fast. The end result in most environments will end up very similar functionally to wild junglefowl. However junglefowl aren't very useful to humans given their small amount of meat and eggs, which brings us back to the original purpose of why humans domesticated junglefowl in the first place

At the moment my flock is mostly a mixture of Sumatra, Egyptian Fayoumi, Red Junglefowl and American Game. It's completely impossible for predators to catch them past one month of age. Dogs, foxes, hawks, racoons, possums, weasels - nothing can touch them. Predators only ever catch young chicks occasionally and mildly slow the population growth

The issue with these predator immune chickens is they're not very useful, and they're honestly very loud and annoying when the fox shows up because their default reaction to predators is screaming, flying away and hiding. Bankivoid types only fight when no other option is available

In my local environment I'm thinking that the ideal chicken for both survival and human usefulness may be a simple cross between a tough dual-purpose chicken and a highly aggressive Malayoid that's willing to poke predator eyes out. I'll be personally using Asil and Rhode Island Red to see if I can create such a chicken

No chicken is more useful for a homestead than the basic Rhode Island Red, and no breed is more aggressive and majestic than the Asil

Survival is easy, but both survival and usefulness to humans is the tricky part

 

[U_Stormcrow]

BYC **IS** littered with landrace projects mistakenly labeled as "breeds" - most abandoned after less than 12 months. A rare few get two years.

If nothing else, it seems to require a level of patience, together with an amount of land resources, most don't seem to have.

and yes, @No Coop No Problem , the *useful* factor is why I am targeting an LR intended to have some human support, but less than 100% dependency - rather than a flock that could easily go feral once I'm gone.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

It's good there's finally a general thread on this stuff. Lots of people seem to be working on somewhat similar landrace projects

I personally have around 100 free-range chickens that live outside 24/7 and sleep in trees. They've been doing this for 3 years now, whole co-habitating with a den of foxes on the same land in addition to a variety of other predators over the years

In my experience it's not hard to breed chickens capable of surviving in a suitable environment. Quality genetics in a quality environment will produce a fit landrace very fast. The end result in most environments will end up very similar functionally to wild junglefowl. However junglefowl aren't very useful to humans given their small amount of meat and eggs, which brings us back to the original purpose of why humans domesticated junglefowl in the first place

At the moment my flock is mostly a mixture of Sumatra, Egyptian Fayoumi, Red Junglefowl and American Game. It's completely impossible for predators to catch them past one month of age. Dogs, foxes, hawks, racoons, possums, weasels - nothing can touch them. Predators only ever catch young chicks occasionally and mildly slow the population growth

The issue with these predator immune chickens is they're not very useful, and they're honestly very loud and annoying when the fox shows up because their default reaction to predators is screaming, flying away and hiding. Bankivoid types only fight when no other option is available

In my local environment I'm thinking that the ideal chicken for both survival and human usefulness may be a simple cross between a tough dual-purpose chicken and a highly aggressive Malayoid that's willing to poke predator eyes out. I'll be personally using Asil and Rhode Island Red to see if I can create such a chicken

No chicken is more useful for a homestead than the basic Rhode Island Red, and no breed is more aggressive and majestic than the Asil

Survival is easy, but both survival and usefulness to humans is the tricky part

The RIR was in fact created by crossing oriental gamefowl to leghorns about a century ago. Hatcheries ruined their free-range potential IMO over the subsequent decades. Reinfusing some fresh oriental genes into them ought to work. That’s actually one of the strategies I advocate in my upcoming book. Using an oriental gamefowl over a flock of more “normal” layers to follow a rough genetic blueprint of the RIR. Assuming a person has the patience to raise out an oriental game cock to full maturity.

I do find straight game breeds to be human useful. I don’t require high efficiency in egg production per hen. 20 free range American game hens will give my family all the eggs we can eat in a year. I do find that egg size matters. My wife absolutely will not cook with small eggs. Thus a main motivator is upsizing my Cracker gamefowl from OEGB-sized egg layers to something more like medium to medium-large sized eggs.

 

[LaurenRitz]

It would also make sense to me that poor eyesight would be a factor in human aggression. Imagine a rooster that sees the world as a blur. It would be a lot easier for a human leg to look like a rival in that circumstance.

One of the Bielefelder x BR was culled because his comb (walnut? Rose?) Was so wide he couldn't see past it. Anything approsched him from the front was immediately attacked. He had to run or walk sideways and zig-zag, never straight.

 

[LaurenRitz]

5 months is a long time for one to go without an attack. The bad ones I’ve had never could go more than 2 or 3 days after I administered a beatdown to them before they were ready to go again.

He got a pass--or a lot of passes--because he was so good with the girls. He was perfect with predators. The dog attack I witnessed he got between the dog and the hens, then played wounded bird and led the dog away before he flew back.

So I found a place that needed what he had. Full disclosure, of course.