Leash training

[Mountain Man Jim]

1. They don't seem to have a definite dominance status yet, though one comes out on top more often. Give the one that comes out on top attention?

I need to reminder myself that your puppies are really still puppies. I bet that 90% of the time they are just playing and a pack order is not going to be decided for a few months. Most likely the top dog is going to be the one standing stiff legged over the one laying on her back. So, yeah, she’s probably the one to reassure of her rank. But, rank might be rather fluid for a few months.

2. Should I let them fight in my lap? If one is in my lap, the other has to be and it usually ends up in fights.

I give preferential treat to the more dominant dog. Since, we have two hands, I pet the other dog off the lap, but next to me. I do make sure that the dominant dog knows that they are getting the better deal and that the pack order is not in jeopardy.

3. FOOD. and treats. Food is MINE, but in training if one doesn't listen, I'll move to the other and give them treats if they listen. Is that affection? Should I not give food to the lower dog first? Because that makes training a lot more complicated.

I agree that treats are a payment to following orders. The dogs should work for treats, hence if they don’t listen, no treat. Giving treats out of order doesn’t seem to affect the pack order. With feeding time, everyone (all 5 dogs) line up in a semicircle, they all must sit and stay as I place their dishes down and everyone is released at the same time. If they break the stay and try to eat first, the dish is pulled away. No one eats until everyone is following the orders. This process is a great way to establish that you are in charge and for all of the dogs to work on their impulse control.

4. And how does affection work for the lower dogs?

The lower dogs are just happy to be in the pack, but we do sneak in some one on one quality time. Our lower dog knows that this does not mean he has been moved up in rank.

Another area to watch is control of privileged places in the house; a dog bed, your bed and furniture, etc. The choice spot is the domain of the alpha dog. The lower dog may steal a choice spot when the dominant dog is away, but they will get punished if they get caught.

Jim

 

[Fly 2006]

All this dominance and pack leader stuff can get a bit over the top, there are so many people living with 2 or more dogs that have no real difference between them and get treated equally, the dogs are happy with this and there are no real issues, just see how it goes and don't look too hard for dominance, if it happens then deal with it how you see fit, it can sometimes be so minor and the dogs sort themselves and you don't need to start treating them differently, I don't really like the term "pack leader" As their owner you train them and gain their respect as human and dog, you are not part of their pack, you are not a dog! The rescue I got my Collie from just say you should be the shepherd, that means your dog sees you as the one to look to for direction and correct behaviour, a dog that respects your love commitment and time will want to please you, be firm but fair, I don't see treating the dogs depending on how they treat each other. I used to look after a wimpy cocker spaniel that wouldn't say boo to a goose! my Collie decided she was boss and would send him to his bed, he would just do as she said! I said I'm not having that, he needs fuss too, I started by making a fuss of him while telling her to back off, then invited her to the other side of me and they both shared the attention, then very soon they were either side of me on the sofa and happy, my dog understood that if I wanted things that way then she accepted it and was ok, my house my rules, my dog is spoilt in the sense that she sleeps upstairs, is allowed on the sofa and on the bed but on my terms, I don't accept any bad behaviour, this has all been achieved by kind and fair training, it equals respect

 

[fowl farm]

Exactly, Fly 2006, that's being pack leader. Even if you don't think so, that's how your dog sees it.

 

[fowl farm]

With two will it really make much difference with the attention thing?

 

[Mountain Man Jim]

With two will it really make much difference with the attention thing?

It won't really be a big deal with your dogs. I’m sure right now they are mostly playing with only a partial eye on who’s going to be the boss. If you give them equal attention there’s no real problem with the puppies. I would just watch the reaction with the other dog especially once one becomes more dominant. You can be your own judge as to whether giving equal attention is good or bad for the beta dog.

My only point is they're soon going to be testing each other for rank until it's settled. No biggy. It’s a dog thing. Equality is a silly human thing that the dogs don’t understand. So, there’s no real point in enforcing equality, it just won’t last. Turn your back and the beta dog is going to get the “Elvis Lips” from the alpha.

I see it more with the large pack because no one wants to lose rank. It really tends to be the lower ranked dogs that causes issues when they get uppity. The alpha dog is forced to correct them. Once the two dogs settle into their positions there are no real issues. The alphas actually tend to very benevolent in their authority if they are confident. It's those dogs that end up in the middle position that can be snappy with the other dogs, but you won’t have that problem. I have to be careful because the middle female will launch herself teeth first at the bottom ranked dog if she suspects he's out of line.

Good Luck,

Jim

 

[badkittyamy]

A choke collar causes no harm to the dog IF used properly. However, not many people know how to and it takes a lot of practice to get it right. Each dog needs a different kind of discipline and each person prefers a different kind of method.

Dominance and pack leader blah blah whatever. There's ONE simple thing to know when training dogs, consistency. If you are consistent with your training, if you are fair with your rewards and your expectations, it will happen. Patience is the key, never judge your progress by anecdotes about how fast dog a or b learned something. You've got lots of good advice so far so I'm not going to re-spew the same stuff but i firmly believe you should never start correcting a dog until you have actually taught them what you want them to do. No leash pops etc until they actually understand what you want them to do and thus what they're being corrected for.

Hot dogs are cheap and easy treats just cut them small, you don't even need a clicker if you want to do marker style training. I just say "yes" then treat. Also OMG red you're HERE, listen to redyre she's about the best lady.

In response to the quote however, science disagrees. A Savannah dog trainer Skip Brandon participated in a study using hundreds of dogs as samples with many other trainers. 100% of the time no matter which trainer it was a choke collar left *some* form of damage to the trachea. As for giving the "dominant" dog preferential treatment, that's just amazing amounts of silly to me, you treat them *Equally* or you can exacerbate the problem at hand.

 

[Fly 2006]

Dominance and pack leader blah blah whatever. There's ONE simple thing to know when training dogs, consistency. If you are consistent with your training, if you are fair with your rewards and your expectations, it will happen. Patience is the key, never judge your progress by anecdotes about how fast dog a or b learned something. You've got lots of good advice so far so I'm not going to re-spew the same stuff but i firmly believe you should never start correcting a dog until you have actually taught them what you want them to do. No leash pops etc until they actually understand what you want them to do and thus what they're being corrected for.

Hot dogs are cheap and easy treats just cut them small, you don't even need a clicker if you want to do marker style training. I just say "yes" then treat. Also OMG red you're HERE, listen to redyre she's about the best lady.

In response to the quote however, science disagrees. A Savannah dog trainer Skip Brandon participated in a study using hundreds of dogs as samples with many other trainers. 100% of the time no matter which trainer it was a choke collar left *some* form of damage to the trachea. As for giving the "dominant" dog preferential treatment, that's just amazing amounts of silly to me, you treat them *Equally* or you can exacerbate the problem at hand.

......... Apparently " equality is a silly human thing " My dog managed to learn it without too much bother! I do realise that a pack of outside dogs are going to behave differently to a couple of pooches that are kept indoors as they have more time alone to get on with it and sort themselves out but I am definately not having a couple of dogs scrapping in my living room, they just need to learn that nice pleasant behaviour means rewards and positive attention from me, it will become second nature, they are treated equally so that they learn they do not need to fight for anything whether that be food, attention from me or which spot they want on the sofa and no I am not Pack leader I am a human being who my dog respects to show her right from wrong, I think you are doing dogs an injustice to think they see us as one of them!

 

[Mountain Man Jim]

We all get so feisty.

Fly2006 I don't think there's anything wrong with how you trained your dogs. But, it does seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

My point is simple. There's a natural order of things. Understanding the order and respecting it brings harmony to the human/doggy world.

Dogs that have accepted their place do not fight. They have accepted the order and all is well. When you have a middle dog that doesn't like the order, things can be a little snappy at time.

I do agree with you that we are not dogs and certainly not the alpha dog; that position is filled by a dog.

Jim

 

[Fly 2006]

No not feisty, just strong beliefs in doing the best for our dogs, I like to hear others ideas but it doesn't mean I can't challange them or equally learn from them

So let me make sure I understand what you are saying........ The Alpha is a dog, the pack leader is a human? That is very confusing

Another point, how can bringing harmony into the house and having two contented dogs be more trouble than it's worth? Maybe it is just that we have different expectations of our dogs and so therefore something that I see as worth the effort, you may not?

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

I have seen the "Alpha dog" stuff work an I have seen the "all equal" stuff work. It does not really matter. It is easier to let them find there place an go along with it than it is to make them equals but its all about what you want in the end...

What does matter is that they all see humans as in charge. There has to be no question in the dogs mind that you are king an they can never challenge you. People get away with allot of things until they don't.


Also the saying "cant teach an old dog new tricks" is there for a reason. You can but the younger a dog is the easier it will be. House training should be done at 4 weeks old. Leash training at 6 to 8 weeks old. Same for tracking, hunting or fetching. Train as soon has they have the ability to do that task. These things are easy at that age. As they get older it gets much harder. After about 2 years old a dogs mind is set an though it can learn after that, learning new things is much harder.