Lets talk about layer feed...

[GreenMountainEric]

Not just more soy but it also must contain synthetic forms of essential amino acids like lysine and methionine to fill the holes in vegetative protein.
I keep a bag of fishmeal for supplementing some chick feed.

Thanks @Texas Kiki & @ChickenCanoe
I am only using the Turkey/Gamebird grower/finisher to supplement for molt right now. I may use it as a supplement year round for boosting the 16% protein in the layer feed for year round, don't know yet. I found a list of nutrient requirements for broilers versus turkeys & Vitamin A & D are the values that most differ on that site. Of course no one lists those values on feed bags & probably each manufacturer differs slightly. Comparing Poulin Grain Chick Starter, a type many use for layers, to T/G finisher there is very little difference on @Texas Kiki 's chart, but of course there are no values for vitamins. I like to shoot for 18% & used to love 21% layer with animal protein many years ago, but don't like the higher protein stuff alone now, because it simply means more soy. Love my GM soy free, because it has fishmeal. Great discussion, thanks.

@Cindy in PA- I can provide you with formulation specs for any of the other nutrients you would like.

There are two reasons I would rather not suggest that you use the Turkey feed....
1- It is labeled and formulated to be a Turkey feed. It isn't formulated or labeled to be used for anything else. I have learned the hard way about suggesting "close enough" diets for customers. We have seen a HUGE amount of unfortunate outcomes from proper feed directions not being followed, alternate/substitute formulas being used on a different species/type, and improper supplementation/treats/etc.

Obviously, in most cases, these practices are absolutely not an issue. And if done right, they work perfect. Lots of backyard chicken owners have done their research, and know how to feed their chickens. At the same time, I have seen a lot of dead chickens, from the owners following bad advice. Some posts in this thread are a good example of that.

I know that you know what you are doing. However, because I am a manufacturer, I have to be careful about what I say is ok to feed.....

2- Technically, if you feed our Turkey grower to a chicken, you are violating Organic standards. By doing so, your chickens are no longer considered Organic, because they are not eating an approved organic diet for chickens...…. Seems dumb, right?!?!

Here is why- There are limitations on added methionine in organic poultry diets. The limits on added methionine in turkey/gamebird feeds is 50% higher than chicken feeds. The turkeys do need that extra methionine, and it is always formulated into a turkey grower.

If I recommend that someone should feed turkey grower to chickens/ducks/etc., I am technically violating my own organic certification. However, I don't believe that you sell your eggs, right? You just use them for yourself/family? In which case, it is perfectly fine that you use the turkey feed. It's just not a good idea for me to suggest it.....

BELIEVE me. I definitely wish I could be more help......

Look at it this way- If I could see a big issue with it, I would have pointed it out

 

[NNYchick]

I recently found this that I thought was neat interactive tool for comparing brand vs NRC recommendations for different life stages of course if the manufacturer doesn’t list vitamins and minerals in guaranteed analysis then it’s not listed. http://www.poultrydvm.com/feeds.php

If you move the slider where it says newly hatched chicks it lets you choose the life stage to compare.

@GreenMountainEric why is it that many manufacturers don’t list many of the vitamins and minerals in the guaranteed analysis, it is frustrating when trying to decide what formula may meet the majority of your flocks needs especially when you have mixed flock of ages and genders all housed together. Also is there any updated poultry guidelines since 1994, I feel many people are feeding higher protein than the recommendations and seeing better results in their poultry, making me question wether these guidelines are up to date with lastest research.

 

[GossChicks]

When the birds are molting, I do give them a higher protein feed. These are males in a bachelor coop and pen.
View attachment 1612615

That’s a lot of Roos!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

...
@GreenMountainEric why is it that many manufacturers don’t list many of the vitamins and minerals in the guaranteed analysis, it is frustrating when trying to decide what formula may meet the majority of your flocks needs especially when you have mixed flock of ages and genders all housed together. Also is there any updated poultry guidelines since 1994, I feel many people are feeding higher protein than the recommendations and seeing better results in their poultry, making me question wether these guidelines are up to date with lastest research.

I'm not Eric but it is because they aren't required to. Some will list some that aren't required but most just go with the regs. I have a chart somewhere I'll try to find with all the animal feed labeling regulations.
There is little tweaking of research data. This horse has been nearly beaten to death but research continues.

 

[GreenMountainEric]

@GreenMountainEric why is it that many manufacturers don’t list many of the vitamins and minerals in the guaranteed analysis, it is frustrating when trying to decide what formula may meet the majority of your flocks needs especially when you have mixed flock of ages and genders all housed together. Also is there any updated poultry guidelines since 1994, I feel many people are feeding higher protein than the recommendations and seeing better results in their poultry, making me question wether these guidelines are up to date with lastest research.

Really simple actually. The FDA and individual state regulations don’t require us to do so. Because of that, we take the easy way out, and don’t bother giving more information than we are required to provide.

Not exactly a flattering answer for the feed industry in general. But, it is what it is.

This also provides an opening for some feed companies to use sub standard/not perfectly balanced ingredients to produce a feed that looks great on the guaranteed analysis, but not so great if you saw the whole picture.

This could more likely be the reason you see many folks having better results on higher protein levels in some cases. Let’s say you have 2 different layer feeds that are both 17% crude protein, and your layer’s current crude protein needs are 17%. You could easily be meeting your chickens actual needs a lot better with one of those feeds than the other.....

In reality, a crude protein figure means absolutely nothing. The real information that you need, is in the levels, and breakdown, of each individual amino acid. You also need to know if the characteristics of the mix, and ingredients used, provide poor, adequate, or exceptional uptake of those nutrients.

I can tell you, with the proper formulation/ingredients/probiotics/etc., 99% of laying hens only need 13.5-17.5% protein in their total diet, depending on their age/weight/Production stage. However, a 20% crude protein diet could be easily formulated, and not appropriately meet their needs......

A good example of this, is the ingredient Field Peas. They are high in crude protein, they are cost effective, they are easy to get, and their amino acid profile works pretty nicely for bovines and swine. However, they really don’t work well with poultry. We have done several large flock studies with field peas, and I was stunned at how poorly they performed.

I don’t have good scientific data to back that up, but we did trial diets with field peas on several 20k bird flocks, at several different times, and the difference was ENORMOUS. Every category from production, to general health, case weights, and overall mortality rates was much better on balanced diets without peas. Some others results may vary......

Another factor is- what else is being fed. If you are feeding a substantial amount of scratch, greens, certain types of scraps, etc., you are probably lowering the protein level in the total diet, and a higher protein layer feed would be preferred. (obviously some types of scraps will raise the total dietary protein).

You also have to keep in mind that excess protein can be an issue as well. Once an average hen gets above 4.75-5lbs, they become a lot more likely to develop fatty liver, or have heart and leg problems. Fatty liver is very common.

I know this isn’t the answer you all would want to hear...... the truth is, a lot can be hidden in the minimum amount of tag/guarantee information that is required. Feed companies aren’t even required to list all of the grain ingredients individually. Luckily, many of them have started to provide that information. Still, there is a huge variance in formulations, even though the guarantee info could read the same. Even if you have two bags of feed from the same manufacturer, they could be very different products, depending on where you purchased them. Products at a big box store are not necessarily the same thing that you can get at your local feed store. Something to keep in mind....

 

[Shadrach]

There are at least two issues regarding high calcium levels in layers pellets; there is the liver and kidney damage over the long term which has been mentioned, but there is also the matter of sudden death possibly caused by hypercalcimia in free range roosters which is the area I'm particularly interested in.
The feeding habits of free range roosters are often rather different to those roosters who are confined and it's the feeding habit combined with the high calcium content of some layers pellets that can cause sudden death.

 

[Kiki]

Really simple actually. The FDA and individual state regulations don’t require us to do so. Because of that, we take the easy way out, and don’t bother giving more information than we are required to provide.

Not exactly a flattering answer for the feed industry in general. But, it is what it is.

This also provides an opening for some feed companies to use sub standard/not perfectly balanced ingredients to produce a feed that looks great on the guaranteed analysis, but not so great if you saw the whole picture.

This could more likely be the reason you see many folks having better results on higher protein levels in some cases. Let’s say you have 2 different layer feeds that are both 17% crude protein, and your layer’s current crude protein needs are 17%. You could easily be meeting your chickens actual needs a lot better with one of those feeds than the other.....

In reality, a crude protein figure means absolutely nothing. The real information that you need, is in the levels, and breakdown, of each individual amino acid. You also need to know if the characteristics of the mix, and ingredients used, provide poor, adequate, or exceptional uptake of those nutrients.

I can tell you, with the proper formulation/ingredients/probiotics/etc., 99% of laying hens only need 13.5-17.5% protein in their total diet, depending on their age/weight/Production stage. However, a 20% crude protein diet could be easily formulated, and not appropriately meet their needs......

A good example of this, is the ingredient Field Peas. They are high in crude protein, they are cost effective, they are easy to get, and their amino acid profile works pretty nicely for bovines and swine. However, they really don’t work well with poultry. We have done several large flock studies with field peas, and I was stunned at how poorly they performed.

I don’t have good scientific data to back that up, but we did trial diets with field peas on several 20k bird flocks, at several different times, and the difference was ENORMOUS. Every category from production, to general health, case weights, and overall mortality rates was much better on balanced diets without peas. Some others results may vary......

Another factor is- what else is being fed. If you are feeding a substantial amount of scratch, greens, certain types of scraps, etc., you are probably lowering the protein level in the total diet, and a higher protein layer feed would be preferred. (obviously some types of scraps will raise the total dietary protein).

You also have to keep in mind that excess protein can be an issue as well. Once an average hen gets above 4.75-5lbs, they become a lot more likely to develop fatty liver, or have heart and leg problems. Fatty liver is very common.

I know this isn’t the answer you all would want to hear...... the truth is, a lot can be hidden in the minimum amount of tag/guarantee information that is required. Feed companies aren’t even required to list all of the grain ingredients individually. Luckily, many of them have started to provide that information. Still, there is a huge variance in formulations, even though the guarantee info could read the same. Even if you have two bags of feed from the same manufacturer, they could be very different products, depending on where you purchased them. Products at a big box store are not necessarily the same thing that you can get at your local feed store. Something to keep in mind....

 

[GldnValleyHens]

I have 3 roosters and a male guinea fowl, and ducks, all eating layer feed. No ill side effects ever. It’s not worth the risk of the girls not receiving enough calcium ( what hens TRULY love oyster shells? Come on, they’d rather eat crumbles)
And, while we love our roosters ( most of us) the hens are what are more important, right?

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

I feed my hens and roosters flock raiser with oyster shells on the side. I think it's much better to feed a diet that provides no risks for any of my chickens, then to feed one which could possibly be detrimental to the health of any non-layers (including old or molting hens) that I might have.
My hens lay eggs that have very strong shells (I've dropped a few of them without them breaking), so I'm sure they get all the calcium they need.

 

[Cindy in PA]

@Cindy in PA- I can provide you with formulation specs for any of the other nutrients you would like.

There are two reasons I would rather not suggest that you use the Turkey feed....
1- It is labeled and formulated to be a Turkey feed. It isn't formulated or labeled to be used for anything else. I have learned the hard way about suggesting "close enough" diets for customers. We have seen a HUGE amount of unfortunate outcomes from proper feed directions not being followed, alternate/substitute formulas being used on a different species/type, and improper supplementation/treats/etc.

Obviously, in most cases, these practices are absolutely not an issue. And if done right, they work perfect. Lots of backyard chicken owners have done their research, and know how to feed their chickens. At the same time, I have seen a lot of dead chickens, from the owners following bad advice. Some posts in this thread are a good example of that.

I know that you know what you are doing. However, because I am a manufacturer, I have to be careful about what I say is ok to feed.....

2- Technically, if you feed our Turkey grower to a chicken, you are violating Organic standards. By doing so, your chickens are no longer considered Organic, because they are not eating an approved organic diet for chickens...…. Seems dumb, right?!?!

Here is why- There are limitations on added methionine in organic poultry diets. The limits on added methionine in turkey/gamebird feeds is 50% higher than chicken feeds. The turkeys do need that extra methionine, and it is always formulated into a turkey grower.

If I recommend that someone should feed turkey grower to chickens/ducks/etc., I am technically violating my own organic certification. However, I don't believe that you sell your eggs, right? You just use them for yourself/family? In which case, it is perfectly fine that you use the turkey feed. It's just not a good idea for me to suggest it.....

BELIEVE me. I definitely wish I could be more help......

Look at it this way- If I could see a big issue with it, I would have pointed it out

@GreenMountainEric

Thanks so much for your detailed reply. This makes perfect sense even though the rules seem weird, LOL. You are right, I do not sell eggs, they are used by myself & other family members. Don't know if I know what I am doing, but I know what seemed to work better back when I started chicken keeping (1993). Never had feather picking or other problems in the first 10 years or so, but since animal protein has been mostly deleted from feed, I have been on a search for the perfect feed! Maybe we all over think it, IDK. I fed 21% layer feed with animal protein from Agway back then or a 16% locally made feed with animal protein. I also gave tons of scratch back then compared to now. I do prefer organic & less soy, but I really prefer the most variety in the feed I give the hens. That is why it is attractive to me to feed your soy free layer with fishmeal & a higher protein feed mixed in to bring it to around 18%. It is hard to find a higher protein feed that is pellets that can be mixed with the layer. I am supplementing & reducing calcium through molt right now. I will figure out what I am doing after they are all done molting. It just seems when I have fed an 18% feed, they have done better. This particular group of hens, hatched March 2018 have been the weirdest bunch I can remember. My feed wish is for an organic 18% layer feed with fishmeal, LOL, but I realize it would be too expensive to manufacture & not in high demand. I appreciate your knowledge & willingness to answer my stupid questions! Thanks.