Lilac Turkeys?

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I studied genetics some in college. It still gives me a headache. I will leave the codes up to experts like Kevin and concentrate on what I can see on the outside. The Standard of Perfection I can understand. I am glad Kevin Porter understands the genitics and is there when we need him. Just another raeson why the Exhibition Turkey Fanciers elected Kevin as our "Technical Genetics Advisor".

Jim
Secretary
Exhibition Turkey Fanciers


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genetics are one of those things you either love or hate! I happen to love them. I used to put the geno type as i found it out on my rabbits pedigrees, really helped breeders to get the colours they were after. Also, that knowledge helps you take a bird look that you like and manipulate the combination to sometimes make it more stable (prime case is the 2 examples of lilacs haha).
Sib
wink.png
 
While I think of it we should give a huge huge welcome to Kevin. We are very lucky he has started participating in this forum. Also thanks for the many gorgeous poults you have sold to me:D
 
I agree on sticking with the original genotype called "lilac" by Taibel, which was actually b+b+DD.
Yes it was also called slate at that time, but today we also call self blue "lavender"


What Taibel called lilacs did not have the red gene in the mix, but what Asmundson was working with and said looked like Taibel's lilacs were bronze based with recessive slate and also were homozygous for red. b+b+slslrr, this phenotype would be a buff colored bird (which would look like a pale bourbon red) with only slight blue edging on the feathers of the toms. I have done a similar cross in the past with dominate slate, b+b+DDrr and or b+b+Dd rr, and the phenotype was buff (with blue edging in the toms) which came out looking like what Asmundson reported and you could only see the blue tipping if you looked close. basically the bird looked like a very pale bourbon red. Not what I would personally put a name like lilac on.


But anyway as I have previously mentioned, soon after the breeder's "at that time" discovered that slate worked better on a black base in getting a truer blue, the bronze base was bred out, So that left the genotype b+b+DD with just the lilac name. So this should be what we refer to as lilac today, every other genotype with a similar phenotype should have a different name, IMO, Red slate was put on b+b+Dd and blue red bronze on b+b+DdRr, there is many other combos that sort of look the same, for example Bb+DdRr is sort of a lilac color but is a different genotype, I refer to this as a rusty slate. I can personally ID any of these other combos just by looking at them but also do understand how others with less experience with all these variations can become confused at what they actually have.




Kevin




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I don't seem to be reading the same thing as you are. Do you have a link to that so we can all follow what your saying. I did find a good link for recessive slate. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A RECESSIVE SLATE PLUMAGE COLOR

OF TURKEYS

V. S. ASMUNDSON

Division of Poultry Husbandry, University of California http://david.redmoosemedia.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/A-RECESSIVE-SLATE-PLUMAGE-COLOR-OF-TURKEYS-1940-V.S-ASMUNDSON-215-8.pdf

The lilac birds are genetically slates, homozygous for the Bourbon Red gene
 
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It's the same literature but now you are referring to Asmundson's study (1936) on sl recessive slates which he added red genes too and called his buff colored birds lilac as well. His work came after Taibel (1933). Taibel used the name lilac first on bronze based turkeys homozygous for dominate slate. When Taibel was studying dominate slate birds recessive slate was not even in the picture yet. So I will continue to call b+b+DD the historic lilac as the name was put on this genotype first.

Just reread the first paragraph by Asmundson, it first talks about Robertson and Taibel's study then goes on to the recessive slates by Asmundson.

Also reread turkey management starting on page 139-141, http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=chla&cc=chla&idno=3317008&q1=Turkey+management&frm=frameset&view=image&seq=148
This goes into detail on Taibel's study on dominate slate D , not sl .As once again this came before Asmundson's study on recessive slate, which is different than dominate slate.

You will see the results of Taibels study, and how when he bred his slates together he produced three results, bronze,medium slate and a light slate he called lilac.
I am trying to get across that this proves he was working with dominate slate on a bronze base, there is no mention of him ever putting red into the mix, that was Asmundson 3 years later when he did a study on the barred slates that misteriously popped out of a bronze flock in CA in 1936.

This was the start of a second slate factor in turkeys, a recessive slate trait. sl was decided on as the symbol here to distinguish it from the dominate slate D factor.
Here is a pic of a recessive slate factored tom in Australia. b+b+slsl
This is what the slates Asmundson got from the Ranch in CA (that mutated out of the bronze flock) would have been.
http://deutschersturkeyfarm.webs.com/photos/Turkey-Varieties/DSCF5222.JPG

This is what he put the red genes into to make the buff birds he called lilac.

Kevin
 

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