Livestock guardian dogs

[Bear Foot Farm]

He's going to be a big boy

 

[zazouse]

This is him a month ago sleeping on the floor next to me.

 

[zazouse]

I been reading up on the Maremma and noticed it is not listed with the AKC but is with the CKC and many other breed registry why is that? i read they came here to the US in the early 1970" do they have to be here along time to be recognized?

 

[SunnySkies]

The AKC board of directors can add breeds, but they seem to only do that if someone petitions for the add, if there is a parent club to oversee, how long the breed is in the US, how many breeding dogs there are, record keeping ability, national interest in that breed, etc. Sort of like getting a chicken breed accepted by APA. And for that, what exactly do you get? That might be why the Maremma has not been granted AKC recognition. Maybe the Maremma folks have not worried too much about it.

I'll be perfectly honest. I see a lot of dogs in my line of work, something like 20 dogs alone yesterday, of many breeds and origins. Many have AKC registration. It makes them no better than the mutt from the shelter, a CKC registered dog or a purebred without papers. It seems to convince people that because "my dog has papers, I should breed." Being AKC registered really just grants your dog the right to compete in purebred dog shows, something I do suggest to clients who say they want to breed, just to see how their dog stacks up against the physical and mental standards of that breed. And once that AKC recognition happens and the breed popularity increases, sometimes the true characteristics of the breed disappear or are forever altered to something too far from what they were bred to do.

Breeding working dogs is different IMHO and I sure did not care about papers when I was looking. I wanted to know how many generations had they been working, with what types of animals, health issues the lines had if any, etc. I don't think I even asked any of the breeders i talked to if their dogs were registered, as I wasn't going to buy breeding or show dogs anyway.

 

[MamaDoodle]

I wish I had a good working dog out there, but I have a black and tan coonhound instead.

She is five or so, and scared senseless (literally) of humans. And I have lost chickens under her watch, but I heartily respect that she has definitely tried.

See "my coop" for more on her, but in the interest of the question, I would get a large working dog next time around. My neighbors use Great Pyr. and love them, they haven't lost an animal yet...the coyotes losses, however...

 

[centrarchid]

SunnySkies,

I agree on many levels with what you say and would like to add a couple of points. All the currently recognized livestock guarding breeds where developed in relatively small regions of Europe and/or Asia. They were selected largely by their job, the environment in which it is done, and by folks without a Standard of Perfection to follow. The job here in the US usually involves a lot more confinement with much smaller herds. With respect to climatic conditions, only parts of the US where dogs are used approximate where a given breed was developed. Disease challenges, especially those associated with wildlife are almost certainly different. In most areas of the US the biggest threats to livestock are feral dogs and coyotes but in the Northwestern US. we have wolves that are a bit larger than those in Europe and Asia.



Overall, this has enabled considerable variation within a dog population that is well outside what is tolerated by dog clubs in the US. Landraces were developed that had some common features as a function of ancestry and parts of job but also had differences owing to location and ancestry with liberal impacts of preferences by herders in charge of breeding programs which do not agree in time within a line of breeders or between breeder lines. When I say breeder lines I mean the human herding families.

When all is said and done we may need to allow development of land race livestock dog populations here and it is very unlikely only one will be suitable for the entire US. Another problem is the populations of livestock guarding dogs are derived from very small numbers brought over from Europe and Asia which has likely compounded any genetically based health issues already present in the Old World. Gene pool in the US within any livestock guarding breed is too small. A little crossing is likely required to develop something new and tough enough for the job. Effort will take multiple breeder lifestimes.


A final point on the breeder side, we used to breed coonhounds and were part of a tri-county club where dogs competed at chasing a caged coon and occasionally in realistic hunting sessions where lies were liberally applied to promote one's own dogs. Humor intended there but some fact. Even with 20 breeding animals in our kennel alone, we did not have the resources to do much selection. The selection was a function of every breeder around. Some parties screwed that effort up by breeding for looks alone or brought in new blood without first testing the impacts. What really messed things up was the shutting down of the hide market. War and changes in farming practices can do similar with livestock guarding dogs.

 

[zazouse]

Breeding working dogs is different IMHO and I sure did not care about papers when I was looking. I wanted to know how many generations had they been working, with what types of animals, health issues the lines had if any, etc. I don't think I even asked any of the breeders i talked to if their dogs were registered, as I wasn't going to buy breeding or show dogs anyway.

Exactly how i feel, when i start looking for a pup i meet the parents, there are a couple folks in my area that have working dogs that offer pups and i have had good luck with their dogs offspring so far, papers don't make them better LGD even if they came with full registration i never sent them off cause i have no use for them.

Thanks for answering my question about the AKC, CKC.. thing i was just wondering how that worked.

 

[SunnySkies]

Exactly how i feel, when i start looking for a pup i meet the parents, there are a couple folks in my area that have working dogs that offer pups and i have had good luck with their dogs offspring so far, papers don't make them better LGD even if they came with full registration i never sent them off cause i have no use for them.

 Thanks for answering my question about the AKC, CKC.. thing i was just wondering how that worked.

Exactly. Also, another reason some folks pursue registration is it allows them to charge more for puppies, even though they are backyard breeders who don't belong to clubs, don't show, don't do OFA/CERF/other genetic testing, don't select breeding dogs to improve the breed, and just produce puppies.

I can't tell you how many times since 1996 someone has handed me the paperwork on their new puppy so I can see what vaccines, dewormings, etc the pup has gotten and verify age (they often get that wrong) and I choke on how much they paid for a puppy. And then if I glance at the breeder name, on the registration papers, and address, it is usually from a state known for puppy mills. And we are not talking working dogs, show dogs, breeding stock, anything like that. Just a Yorkie, poodle, Shih Tzu, GSD, Rottie, something like that. I even have had a few people bring me crossbred dogs they paid a lot of money plus shipping for with some sort of "registration" with an alternative club. But the fact that it has papers allows the breeder to charge $500 to $1000 more than the next pup I see, purchased locally and without papers, but they usually look identical. (no joke, I had two Shih Tzu puppies come in Saturday for exam and vaccines, and one came from somewhere in the Midwest and was $1400 plus shipping, the other was $600 and bought locally, both were sold as "pet only" and looked like twins!) It makes no difference to me, and I don't care what someone spends on their dog, but I wish there was a better understand of what "papers" actually means, kwim.

MamaDoodle, I'm sorry your coonhound isn't quite working out perfectly. IME, that is a breed where those first 12 weeks makes all the difference. I've seen some that were crazy outgoing and very trustworthy and others not...one of my coonhound patients is a dog that is actually kinda hazardous to handle because of his fear levels. When you are ready, you will find the right LGD.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

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[Kelsykin]

I love my Miles. Yes, his mother was being bred this one time. That is also due to the rarity of the breed in the US. She was also a working dog. Not a show dog. The vet came out weekly to check her and then to check her and the pups until they were 8 weeks old. The first pups left at 8 weeks. We got Miles at 11 weeks. I drove the woman nuts with questions to verify against my research on the breed. We even called the vet and verified that he had seen the pups. The vet sent our vet a copy of the health records he had kept to verify that the records we were given were correct.
What was paid per pup paid barely covered what it cost her in vet bills to ensure the pups were all healthy. She did not make a profit. And this was not the dog going to the vet. The vet came to the dog. Maremmas are not good car dogs.