LSG that herds as well?

[4 the Birds]

I think the best advice is to add a fence to set a perimeter or boundary for the birds. Even some quick temporary poultry netting will make a big difference. Dogs can have amazing abilities whether they are pure bred or common mutts. We have a dog pack of 7 dogs on our 20+ acres which has a perimeter fence. The birds also have their own perimeter fence area. 1/2 acre or a 1 acre area will be plenty large for your birds to free range. If you decide to get a dog then you could also fence the 3 acre area to set a perimeter for the dog. Our dogs chase rabbits and deer on the property and without the fence they would continue a chase well beyond the perimeter. Obtaining a dog with special abilities can be time consuming and cost prohibitive. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

"No, my German Shepherd cannot live with the flock 24/7 and do her job without leadership, discipline, and affection from her human pack leader, but that doesn't mean she can't do the most basic job of guarding her packmates. She does it just fine, thanks."

Once more, I never said your dog couldn't do some things
I SAID your dog is NOT a LGD, and pretending it is won't change that

Some seem to have a huge problem understanding simple terms

 

[zazouse]

That's typical curiosity, and any mutt from a pound can do thatIt STILL doesn't make the dog an LGDThe term has a SPECIFIC MEANING.

You don't know my dogs ,nor how they work nor how they were trained, i use their instincts to my advantage. i have dogs that are bred to be LGD and i have crosses with them making them mutts and i can assure you they are guarding these birds here and it ain't just curiosity that sends them high tailing it to a bunch a screaming birds.

 

[Kyonarai]

" So please, don't discount another breed just because it's not some chosen and special "LGD" breed." I never said your dog couldn't do some things. What I SAID was it's NOT a LGD, and never will be None of the behaviors you described have anything to do with "guarding LIVESTOCK", and are all territorial Your dog is a PET.

I don't have a problem with my dog not being a LGD. He's not. Hell, he does not even have a typical saint bernard temperament. Most saint bernards are not aggressive towards strangers unless they become violent, or are trespassing. Most saints natural instinct is to tackle, or use a firm bite to pull a person to the ground, and then either stand over them or lay on them, growling if the person tries to move until their owners return to assess the situation. That is what a grown saint bernard will do, with no training what so ever, if they are from the right bloodlines. They are known for being peacekeepers, and one of the best non lethal guard dogs for people with families. They will also break up fights between both grown people and children, by inserting their bodies between to people and shoving them both away. In fact, the saint my husband grew up with would not let his mother spank him. If my husband could make it to Ralph's area and hide behind him, Ralph would body block his mother, and take any amount of abuse she would dish out to him calmly, while still not allowing her to hit her son. I saw one of my own previous dogs break up a fight between two of my younger cousins by getting between them and growling if they tried to go at each other again.

I never said my dog was a LGD. In fact, I explicitly stated that he WASN'T in both of my previous posts. I'm saying that my dog is capable of guarding something other than territory. If he's not guarding ME, then why does he show aggression to strangers who come too close to me on walks?(hackles up, plus low warning growl, plus escalating to lunging if they continue to approach). He is fine with all people so long as they maintain a comfortable speaking distance, but people who barge up to me or him will get a warning growl. How is that not guarding ME, when it happens anywhere, even if he's never been there before? And I try not to walk him if I have my 18 month old daughter with me, because he will not let ANYTHING near her. No people, no animals, anything. That's his baby.

Another example, I use him to help me raise and watch over foster puppies on occasion. I had a lady come over to look at the pups, and he was totally ignoring her(because I had invited her in), just chilling in the puppy pen with the pups while she was on the outside. I was lifting up different pups to show her them. He was completely chill and mellow until one puppy yelped because I accidentally stepped on it's tail. Yoshi freaked out and began barking/lunging at her through the fence because he thought that SHE had hurt the puppy. How is that not being protective of the pups?

He's also fine with stray cats unless they start a fight with one of our cats. How is that not protecting our cats?

Again, I think all dogs are amazing, and although I don't think I'll ever own any dog other than a select few breeds(saints, newfys, Pyrs, Ovtcharka, Tibetan mastiffs, bernese mountain dogs, or greater swiss mountain dogs) because I prefer their size and mannerisms, I try not to discount any breed of dog based on stereotype.

As far as I'm concerned, my dog is a working guard. Not a livestock guard, just a guard, and if you have to be so nit picky technical then fine, he is a property guard. He lives outside most of the time, he is always out at night or when we are away, and he will rip the face off of anyone dumb enough to invade our property with three giant dogs in the way. Seriously, why can't a dog be a pet and a working dog too? have you ever met a retired police dog? I guarantee they'd still take you to the ground if their owner gave them the command, even years after retirement. And those are german shepHERDS, as you say.

What about bomb sniffing dogs? Or service dogs? Or even personal or professional protection dogs? All of those dogs serve the dual purpose of providing companionship to their owner/handler, while also preforming an important job. They are not LGD, that is true, but they ARE working dogs. Just because it's not an LGD, does not mean it's automatically "just a pet".

And while I don't have the experience of breeding dogs for 10 years, I do know saints. I've had these dogs since I was 18, and have been extremely involved in learning their history and genetics, and am soon to be breeding my first litter. My husband grew up with them, from the time he was 4 years old. I've had saints from all bloodlines and backgrounds, including one rescue who was deaf, and I can see the same inherent instincts in almost every one of them. A saint is not just a pet, when they were bred to guard a monastery, and find people trapped under 20 feet of snow. I know of saints that can haul over 5000lbs in weight pull competitions. They are a well muscled working dog in all respects, and if trained properly, are an excellent addition to any small farm in my opinion.

And again, I'll reiterate. I'm not insisting that any dog who watches over a livestock animal is a LGD. I'm saying that a dog CAN be a great addition to a small farm or backyard flock if it is trained properly and is a good breed for it(gentle with small animals, has some natural guarding tendency, even if the dog is only guarding the property). Because at the start of this post, you claimed that having any dog, even a LGD was not worth the trouble when raising chickens. I disagreed. Hence our fun little "discussion" here.

Anyways, as I am in favor of having a dog in the same yard as chickens, this list of pros and cons is for other posters or the OP who might be interested in getting a dog to help protect their chickens:

Pros as I see them:
-A good dog of substantial size and temperament, and with proper training(or not, as some dogs do this on their own, ie. my male saint) will drive off or kill potential predators of your flock, and can also provide a deterrent to some human threats, as many thieves would rather take the easier route and not deal with dogs.
-A dog's barking can alert you to possible trouble
-I personally find dogs fun to be around, and enjoy their sillier antics
-Most giant breeds eat much less than you'd think once they are full grown. My 170lb intact male eats about 6 cups of quality food a day, my 120lb spayed girl eats 3-4 cups, and my current show ***** I'm raising eats anywhere between 6 and 8 cups, as she's still growing. As puppies they eat you out of house and home >_<. I buy 80lbs of food every two weeks to keep them fed.
-Dogs are awesome!

Cons:
-Some dogs are aggressive to small fast moving animals. Train and evaluate any dog for at least a year before you leave them alone with your chickens.
-Dogs are an extra expense, so if you don't enjoy them just for being themselves, it might not be worth it.
-Most dogs require strong fencing to be contained, and even then, some can hop fences(the saint my husband grew up with could hop a six footer from a stand still). If you're debating between getting a dog or a fence, get the fence. You're gonna need it either way.
-Dogs require additional care, such as worm/heart worm preventative, flea preventative, and at the very least a rabies vaccine, though distemper and parvo vaccines are strongly encouraged. Note that I am not a fan of yearly vaccinations, as I believe it causes significant organ damage over time to the kidneys and liver.

Anyways, I'm outta here, as I feel this discussion is more detrimental than anything, since it's getting away from what the poster originally asked about. Good luck and good day!

 

[Ultra]

"Once more, I never said your dog couldn't do some things I SAID your dog is NOT a LGD, and pretending it is won't change that Some seem to have a huge problem understanding simple terms

Uhm, let's see you said our dogs were not guarding animals, only territory. You said they were not responding to alerts, merely being curious. You said a German Shepherd isn't a guard dog. You said no dog will guard chickens. You said alot.,

If all you wanted to say was that LGD's are specific breeds, you failed epically.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Quote:
You're entitled to that opinion. I happen to disagree, and I think you're mistaken about the type of behavior your dog exhibits.

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

"Anyways, I'm outta here, as I feel this discussion is more detrimental than anything, since it's getting away from what the poster originally asked about. Good luck and good day!"

The OP's question was answered on Page One

 

[capayvalleychick]

Is there a dog known for guarding AND herding? Is it even practical to think a dog will keep birds out of a particular area?

Yes there is a breed that will herd and guard, sometimes even hunt. Research the English Shepherd.

I have two. They keep the chickens in certain areas, out of others ie the deck, garden etc. They also herd the cattle & sheep when I need help with them, but leave them alone when help is not needed. They are known for their "off switch", which means they are not as driven to work like a Border Collie, but will work when there is a need. They protect against predators, will kill small ones like possums, will tree or chase off coon, will bark to warn off coyotes. They also hunt & kill vermin like gophers. Mine also alert me to strangers and act protective, but will be friendly when told that a person is a friend. Unlike most LGDs, they can be trained to stay on a small property. Another difference is that they don't bark as much. The biggest difference is that they are very people oriented and biddable to training. They will want to be with you as a companion but will still watch over the stock.
They are similar to Aussies but have not been bred for show, so still have more working instinct.
The German Shepherd breed is my favorite breed. We have had them for 30+ years. But they do have a hard bite and tend to grip when helping with stock. That means injuries. I got ES when we got this ranch because they are the traditional multi purpose farm dog of America. They have rate with stock, which means that they can be as gentle or firm as necessary, depending on the type of stock.
You do have to train them. They are known for being bossy and enforcing the rules. You have to teach them the correct rules.
If you decide to get an ES, research to find a reputable breeder and make sure that you are getting a dog that meets your needs. Temperaments and working ability can vary. There is also National English Shepherd Rescue.
Hope this helps.

 

[Maemujwok]

I actually came up with a different solution all together. I found a spot out back where I WANTED the chickens to hang out and made it irresistible to them! Started putting scratch out in a wonderful place for them to do dust baths and bringing snacks and ice water to that area as well. They seem to be abandoning the porch in favor for this spot instead. They still wander back up front on occasion--but NOTHING like before when it was their number 1 spot. This seems to be satisfying the property owner and by making them enjoy the back area, they are further away from the property line. Win/win. We'll see how long my fickle flock stays out back!

 

[MrsBachbach]

There are no dogs bred to "guard chickens"You can train a dog to NOT bother chickens, but they will not "guard" them as they will true livestock

Phooey. I have a Great Pyrenees and she protects my chickens. That is all I have, chickens. There was a time that I wondered if she was truly guarding them or me, but I wonder no longer. She is protecting all of us. I have witnessed, (while I was in the house) her chase off dogs that have attacked the chickens in the past and watched her go after dogs that have even shown an interest in the chickens. Now, she doesn't do this to dogs that have never bothered the chickens, only the ones that have or are going to. She knows which ones are eyeing the birds. Sorry, but this LGD guards chickens. Now, a sneaky predator does on occassion get him one, but I am not losing most or all of my flock like I have in the past and I attribute that to her. My acreage is unfenced and my chickens are let out of the pen daily.



Also, she doesn't wander like others have said theirs do. She has never been behind a fence and while she doesn't know our property line, she has never been out of calling distance. When she was a pup and just brought home, I kept her on a leash for two weeks and walked her twice a day around our property. She was brought into the chicken pen when on a leash also, again for about two weeks. That was the extent of her training on birds, property etc. She is a smart dog, not territorial, just protective.