Quote:
Try to get some sleep!!!!! If you can!
Try to get some sleep!!!!! If you can!
Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!
- Thread starter Wynette
- Start date
I've been spending a few days researching genetics in the Marans breed and came across some information for the serious breeders! It looks like we should be watching for slow feathering beginning at hatch and culling when necessary. From what I have read it seems that if you can almost completely eradicate slow feathering from your flock your subsequent pullets will start laying earlier!! That's always a plus!
Anyway here is the info:
GENETIC CHARACTERISTICS OF
GROWTH OR SPEED OF FLEDGING
In general the genetic characteristics responsible for the normal and fast growth of the plumage in poultry is recessive and sex-linked. It is symbolized by the term (k+). So that the subjects in question sport normal plumage and not slowed growth (presence of k+), it is imperative that three dominant factors of the series K are missing from their genotype, which are: (K), (Ks) and (Kn), called Asian slow-feathering genes.
In addition, poultry affected by the gene (k+) will be really normal for plumage growth only if carrying, moreover, the dominant factor (T+).
In the absence of (T+), the subjects (k+) will thus be affected by the presence of one of the recessive factors of the series T, which are (t) or (ts), called autosomal slow-feathering genes.
In a way, a chick whose appearance and growth of the plumage are naturally fast will thus genetically consist of the unit [(k+), (T+)].
The wild breeds of the Bankiva type as well as many other breeds of the Mediterranean type have fast feathering, which upon hatching have 6 already emerged primary flight feathers and almost all the secondaries quite visible; they are thus [(k+), (T+)].
(k+) for: absence of Asian slow-feathering
(T+) for: absence of autosomal slow-feathering.
We have incontestably detected the presence of these types of reducing genetic factors in certain lines of Marans, in particular genes (K) or (Ks), or even (t) or (ts).
Those are, on the other hand, not easily identifiable between them and subject to complementary experiments in the breedings followed by the MCF.
This characteristic can be easily located by the presence of slow or late fledging of chicks until at least 10 days and even more according to some cases.One notices only a few or no feathers on the tail, flight feathers, and on the back.
Let us quote this after some elements of recognition of these various types of slow fledging in order to facilitate their possible location in young subjects.
GENETIC CHARACTERISTICS OF THE TYPE (K) ASIAN SLOW-FEATHERING GENE
Factors concerning (K), (Ks), and (kn) influence the speed of starting and growth of the feathers on various levels, actng as a brake in fast-fledging chickens in the very first weeks of age.
-1- the gene (K):
It simply causes late feathering in some subjects and it is present in several well known heavy breeds, generally of Asian, American or English origin, such as the Brahma, the Indian Game, the Cochin and theWyandotte. One understands that the Marans can be occasionally affected by this type of genetic trait inherited from some of its Asian ancestors.
-2- the gene (Ks):
It generally causes slow or very slow fledging during the first 12 weeks of life; it is then without any influence in adulthood. Some Marans could also be affected with this trait.
-3- the gene (Kn):
This gene causes very slow fledging, almost truly handicapping insofar as one can note a true limitation of growth of the plumage throughout almost the whole of its juvenile development and even into adulthood. It can still cause a limitation of the size of the comb as well as an atrophy of the uropygial gland.
Marans do not seem affected by this last allele, but if necessary, it must be radically eliminated.
GENETIC CHARACTERISTICS OF THE TYPE T AUTOSOMAL SLOW-FEATHERING GENE
As the inverse of the Asian slow-feathering gene (k) examined previously, there are still two different factors highlighted in 1933 and then in 1946, of the types (t) or (ts) which are also responsible for a real slowing of fledging.
As for the animals known as normal, they are carrying the dominant autosomal gene (T+), i.e. non-sex-linked and which acts only in the presence of (k+) in the genotype: i.e. the absence of any Asian slow-feathering gene.
-1- the gene (t):
It causes a slow fledging, but a little less late, i.e. until the age of six weeks maximum. Marans could be affected with this type of allele.
-2- the gene (ts):
This gene causes definitely late feathering, at least until the eighth week of age. Marans could also be occasionally affected, but this still merits confirmation.
REVIEW OF MARANS AFFECTED WITH SLOW-FEATHERING GENES
Based on the state of the experiments to date and those which deserve further study, we can summarize the phenotypic differences with the following elements:
At hatch:
The normal chicks [(k+), (T+)] do not have any slowing of feathering have their primary and secondary flight feathers and visible wing coverts.
The flight feathers are more developed than the coverts.
Conversely, the chicks affected with slow-feathering genes do not show longer flight feathers than the coverts.
At ten days:
The difference between the various genotypes is clearer than at hatching.
The normal subjects [(k+), (T+)] must have a tail of approximately two centimeters and their flight feathers almost cover their sides to the tail.
The subjects (K), on the other hand, do not have a tail and their flight feathers are already well-developed.
The subjects [(k+), (ts)] do not have a tail and their secondary flight feathers are normal, but there are only three or four primary flight feathers.
The subjects [(k+), (t)] have a tail and there are six very shortened primary flight feathers and no secondary flight feathers, or at most, very few.
At eight weeks:
The normal subjects [(k+), (T+)] show a tail which has started to moult from the center.
On the other hand, the subjects with slow-feathering genes have frayed caudal feathers, which are softer at the base.
PROBLEMS CAUSED BY (K) OR (t) SLOW-FEATHERING GENES
It is advisable to remember here that once adulthood, i.e. sexual maturity, is reached there is no difference in plumage between the various subjects whether or not they are affected by this phenomenon. Sorting between them becomes impossible after this age and often even much earlier.
We have to thus make a type of selection made easier at hatching. Simply eliminating the young chicks locatable by difficult fledging, in particular on the tail, the back, and the wings would make it possible to obtain a rather easy cleansing of the stock over a few years.
In addition, since during expositions or shows, it is not possible to distinguish the subjects concerned as they are adults, then we are very tempted to think that these types of reducing genes do not present major disadvantages. In fact, the risk exists of a real and lasting laxity in regards to selection for breeders from this point.
It appears then that these types of slow-feathering genes of the young chicks, which are of course hereditary, not only do not bring anything positive to the breed but especially can cause some problems.
Thus, it was discovered in 1988 that the Asian slow-feathering gene (K) in particular would be in close connection with the existence of an endoviral gene of the viral family which causes leucoses. The subjects with the slow-feathering gene (K) would be thus more sensitive to this group of diseases and have proven to have reduced performance.
In addition, slow or late feathering makes it obvious that these young subjects are more sensitive to picking, having their back stripped to at least four weeks of age and especially, their puny tail feathers which are not very hard at the base until at least eight weeks of age.
Let us recall that at this age, the normal subjects have their caudal feathers entirely finished.
We must still stress that the subjects with slow-feathering genes show after slaughter a more significant number of pinfeathers than normal subjects.
Lastly, we must add that the young Marans pullets with normal and rapid feathering tend to begin laying earlier. To contrast, allele (K) might, however, make it possible to support a greater clarity of barring in the Cuckoo plumage, or even of the intensity of the red in poultry plumage.
In spite of the probability of this attraction, which remains to be shown at a greater length, these types of genes are proving more or less handicapping and rather not easily identifiable between them. Consequently, it seems quite obvious, as far as possible, to limit if not eliminate all the young Marans subjects which present one or another of these reducing genes.
Anyway here is the info:
GENETIC CHARACTERISTICS OF
GROWTH OR SPEED OF FLEDGING
In general the genetic characteristics responsible for the normal and fast growth of the plumage in poultry is recessive and sex-linked. It is symbolized by the term (k+). So that the subjects in question sport normal plumage and not slowed growth (presence of k+), it is imperative that three dominant factors of the series K are missing from their genotype, which are: (K), (Ks) and (Kn), called Asian slow-feathering genes.
In addition, poultry affected by the gene (k+) will be really normal for plumage growth only if carrying, moreover, the dominant factor (T+).
In the absence of (T+), the subjects (k+) will thus be affected by the presence of one of the recessive factors of the series T, which are (t) or (ts), called autosomal slow-feathering genes.
In a way, a chick whose appearance and growth of the plumage are naturally fast will thus genetically consist of the unit [(k+), (T+)].
The wild breeds of the Bankiva type as well as many other breeds of the Mediterranean type have fast feathering, which upon hatching have 6 already emerged primary flight feathers and almost all the secondaries quite visible; they are thus [(k+), (T+)].
(k+) for: absence of Asian slow-feathering
(T+) for: absence of autosomal slow-feathering.
We have incontestably detected the presence of these types of reducing genetic factors in certain lines of Marans, in particular genes (K) or (Ks), or even (t) or (ts).
Those are, on the other hand, not easily identifiable between them and subject to complementary experiments in the breedings followed by the MCF.
This characteristic can be easily located by the presence of slow or late fledging of chicks until at least 10 days and even more according to some cases.One notices only a few or no feathers on the tail, flight feathers, and on the back.
Let us quote this after some elements of recognition of these various types of slow fledging in order to facilitate their possible location in young subjects.
GENETIC CHARACTERISTICS OF THE TYPE (K) ASIAN SLOW-FEATHERING GENE
Factors concerning (K), (Ks), and (kn) influence the speed of starting and growth of the feathers on various levels, actng as a brake in fast-fledging chickens in the very first weeks of age.
-1- the gene (K):
It simply causes late feathering in some subjects and it is present in several well known heavy breeds, generally of Asian, American or English origin, such as the Brahma, the Indian Game, the Cochin and theWyandotte. One understands that the Marans can be occasionally affected by this type of genetic trait inherited from some of its Asian ancestors.
-2- the gene (Ks):
It generally causes slow or very slow fledging during the first 12 weeks of life; it is then without any influence in adulthood. Some Marans could also be affected with this trait.
-3- the gene (Kn):
This gene causes very slow fledging, almost truly handicapping insofar as one can note a true limitation of growth of the plumage throughout almost the whole of its juvenile development and even into adulthood. It can still cause a limitation of the size of the comb as well as an atrophy of the uropygial gland.
Marans do not seem affected by this last allele, but if necessary, it must be radically eliminated.
GENETIC CHARACTERISTICS OF THE TYPE T AUTOSOMAL SLOW-FEATHERING GENE
As the inverse of the Asian slow-feathering gene (k) examined previously, there are still two different factors highlighted in 1933 and then in 1946, of the types (t) or (ts) which are also responsible for a real slowing of fledging.
As for the animals known as normal, they are carrying the dominant autosomal gene (T+), i.e. non-sex-linked and which acts only in the presence of (k+) in the genotype: i.e. the absence of any Asian slow-feathering gene.
-1- the gene (t):
It causes a slow fledging, but a little less late, i.e. until the age of six weeks maximum. Marans could be affected with this type of allele.
-2- the gene (ts):
This gene causes definitely late feathering, at least until the eighth week of age. Marans could also be occasionally affected, but this still merits confirmation.
REVIEW OF MARANS AFFECTED WITH SLOW-FEATHERING GENES
Based on the state of the experiments to date and those which deserve further study, we can summarize the phenotypic differences with the following elements:
At hatch:
The normal chicks [(k+), (T+)] do not have any slowing of feathering have their primary and secondary flight feathers and visible wing coverts.
The flight feathers are more developed than the coverts.
Conversely, the chicks affected with slow-feathering genes do not show longer flight feathers than the coverts.
At ten days:
The difference between the various genotypes is clearer than at hatching.
The normal subjects [(k+), (T+)] must have a tail of approximately two centimeters and their flight feathers almost cover their sides to the tail.
The subjects (K), on the other hand, do not have a tail and their flight feathers are already well-developed.
The subjects [(k+), (ts)] do not have a tail and their secondary flight feathers are normal, but there are only three or four primary flight feathers.
The subjects [(k+), (t)] have a tail and there are six very shortened primary flight feathers and no secondary flight feathers, or at most, very few.
At eight weeks:
The normal subjects [(k+), (T+)] show a tail which has started to moult from the center.
On the other hand, the subjects with slow-feathering genes have frayed caudal feathers, which are softer at the base.
PROBLEMS CAUSED BY (K) OR (t) SLOW-FEATHERING GENES
It is advisable to remember here that once adulthood, i.e. sexual maturity, is reached there is no difference in plumage between the various subjects whether or not they are affected by this phenomenon. Sorting between them becomes impossible after this age and often even much earlier.
We have to thus make a type of selection made easier at hatching. Simply eliminating the young chicks locatable by difficult fledging, in particular on the tail, the back, and the wings would make it possible to obtain a rather easy cleansing of the stock over a few years.
In addition, since during expositions or shows, it is not possible to distinguish the subjects concerned as they are adults, then we are very tempted to think that these types of reducing genes do not present major disadvantages. In fact, the risk exists of a real and lasting laxity in regards to selection for breeders from this point.
It appears then that these types of slow-feathering genes of the young chicks, which are of course hereditary, not only do not bring anything positive to the breed but especially can cause some problems.
Thus, it was discovered in 1988 that the Asian slow-feathering gene (K) in particular would be in close connection with the existence of an endoviral gene of the viral family which causes leucoses. The subjects with the slow-feathering gene (K) would be thus more sensitive to this group of diseases and have proven to have reduced performance.
In addition, slow or late feathering makes it obvious that these young subjects are more sensitive to picking, having their back stripped to at least four weeks of age and especially, their puny tail feathers which are not very hard at the base until at least eight weeks of age.
Let us recall that at this age, the normal subjects have their caudal feathers entirely finished.
We must still stress that the subjects with slow-feathering genes show after slaughter a more significant number of pinfeathers than normal subjects.
Lastly, we must add that the young Marans pullets with normal and rapid feathering tend to begin laying earlier. To contrast, allele (K) might, however, make it possible to support a greater clarity of barring in the Cuckoo plumage, or even of the intensity of the red in poultry plumage.
In spite of the probability of this attraction, which remains to be shown at a greater length, these types of genes are proving more or less handicapping and rather not easily identifiable between them. Consequently, it seems quite obvious, as far as possible, to limit if not eliminate all the young Marans subjects which present one or another of these reducing genes.
berkleysprings, Debbi and gvntofly05,
Thanks for the encouragement...our whole family can't stay away from the bator tv session going on in the kitchen lol.
Debbi,
I hope everything goes great with your hatch!
gvntofly05,
What a lot of great information!
Thanks for the encouragement...our whole family can't stay away from the bator tv session going on in the kitchen lol.
Debbi,
I hope everything goes great with your hatch!
gvntofly05,
What a lot of great information!
- Aug 8, 2010
- 269
- 0
- 99
Quote:
Hi
I have only seen slow feathering in the cuckoo, not is any of the other lines.
Bev
Hi
I have only seen slow feathering in the cuckoo, not is any of the other lines.
Bev
gvntofly05,
Very interesting, thanks! I thought my first clutch feathered out quickly, and at nine weeks, like the article said, there is quite a bit of feather loss from the inside of the tail. Lots of feathers on the coop floor! All look pretty well feathered to me, except for the roo lacking the long hackle feathering and long tail feathers. Pip, who is 5 weeks younger than the first clutch, seemed to feather out quicker. He has more of a tail than the rest did at his age, and almost complete feathering except for the chest area and neck, at 4 weeks. After today, I am now considering Pip a roo. Will explain this in my next post. Maybe the difference in the speed of my chicks feathering from one clutch to the next was the difference in the size of the clutches?? In otherwords, the 4 would have had less room? to feather, than just Pip by himself? Hopefully, like Bev says, it is limited to the Cuckoos, the BCMs have enough to worry about!
Very interesting, thanks! I thought my first clutch feathered out quickly, and at nine weeks, like the article said, there is quite a bit of feather loss from the inside of the tail. Lots of feathers on the coop floor! All look pretty well feathered to me, except for the roo lacking the long hackle feathering and long tail feathers. Pip, who is 5 weeks younger than the first clutch, seemed to feather out quicker. He has more of a tail than the rest did at his age, and almost complete feathering except for the chest area and neck, at 4 weeks. After today, I am now considering Pip a roo. Will explain this in my next post. Maybe the difference in the speed of my chicks feathering from one clutch to the next was the difference in the size of the clutches?? In otherwords, the 4 would have had less room? to feather, than just Pip by himself? Hopefully, like Bev says, it is limited to the Cuckoos, the BCMs have enough to worry about!
Now, on to the Pip experiment! Being a lovely day, and having to clean out the brooder anyway, I decided to introduce Pip to the other four out in the coop. Put Pip in a rectangular breeder type bird cage, and out he went to the run. With me there in the run, nothing was happening, so I backed out of the run to the porch. The pullets all went up to the cage, looked him over, and that was pretty much it. "Yup, a chick to contend with.." Fuglee Roo, on the other hand was having a fit! He struts up to the cage with machesmo (sp?) I'd never seen before. Now mind you, with a 5 week difference in age, there is quite a size difference. Fugs pecked at the cage to get the chick's attention. To my surprise, Pip runs over to him. Fuglee can't seem to get any hits on the chick through the bars, but the chick is pecking back and making contact! All of a sudden, it looks like a cock fight about to ensue. Fuglee stands up, the Pip does too. Fuglee bobs down, so does Pip. The pullets are watching them both like they are insane. No one is getting hurt, so I let it go on to see how this plays out. Fuglee is NOT a happy camper now. He goes around and around the cage to challenge Pip from all sides. He is met with a mirror response to every action he makes. Question: is Pip just mimicking Fuglee, or is he aware he is a roo too? Is this going to be a major battle when they eventually get together?? It may have done nothing for Fuglee's self esteem, but he sure all of a sudden is looking "manlier" around his pullets. Pip, on the other hand, seems very happy to have made contact with ANY chickens at all, and has just now settled down and not calling out to them. I think I may have to wait for the next clutch to hatch to integrate Pip in with anyone. He may be more accepted by the younger chicks (again, a 5 week difference), as "the man", rather than getting his butt kicked by Fuglee who has now established himself with "his" girls. What to do?? Any advice here on this?? Thanks.
Bev, Thanks for the info! I'm happy to hear that it only seems to be a real problem with the Cuckoo's.
Quote:
I try to keep really good records and pictures of all chicks I hatch and keep. In my oldest flock I had 2, that ended up being pullets, that were feathering a little slower, not enough to warrant concern, but ended up catching up to the rest by 10-12 weeks. So maybe it is the presence of the (K) gene?
I have decided I am going to cull all "slower" feathering chicks from my flock over the next couple of years, keep real strict records, and see if it makes a difference. Can't hurt anything by trying it right? LOL
Quote:
I try to keep really good records and pictures of all chicks I hatch and keep. In my oldest flock I had 2, that ended up being pullets, that were feathering a little slower, not enough to warrant concern, but ended up catching up to the rest by 10-12 weeks. So maybe it is the presence of the (K) gene?
I have decided I am going to cull all "slower" feathering chicks from my flock over the next couple of years, keep real strict records, and see if it makes a difference. Can't hurt anything by trying it right? LOL
Which cockerel(s) should I use for breeding (see pics below). I know these can be e/e, wheaten-based, or ER based or a mix of genotypes, so it's hard for me to know which to choose for breeders. If I pick the biggest/healthiest, it would be the roosters in the first 2 pics.
Edited to add: none of these are breeding-age yet, but I'm just planning in advance!
Here they are.....
and these below have lost most the tail feathers (not sure why - all the birds were raised together and these are the only ones w/out tailfeathers - I have 2 hens and 2 cockerels like this). The color looks prettier, but I don't know if the tail feather thing is something to worry about. They don't seem as vigorous as the other birds.
Edited to add: none of these are breeding-age yet, but I'm just planning in advance!
Here they are.....
and these below have lost most the tail feathers (not sure why - all the birds were raised together and these are the only ones w/out tailfeathers - I have 2 hens and 2 cockerels like this). The color looks prettier, but I don't know if the tail feather thing is something to worry about. They don't seem as vigorous as the other birds.
Last edited:
Quote:
Just for you Pink - drool away at this "blue beauty":
Just for you Pink - drool away at this "blue beauty":
Quote:
If someone had told me a few years ago that this is what I would be doing someday I would have laughed till I wet myself.
x 2
If someone had told me a few years ago that this is what I would be doing someday I would have laughed till I wet myself.
x 2
Similar threads
New posts New threads Active threads
-
Latest threads
-
-
-
-
8 yo Plymouth Rock has rock hard abdomen- Started by Jeanw
- Replies: 0
-
-
-
Threads with more replies in the last 15 days
-
-
-
BYC's 52-week Photography Challenge. Week 2: (Jan 12-18, 2026). Theme: Flock Star- Started by Lacy Duckwing
- Replies: 95
-
-
Help I have a butt pecker
- Started by Hannah2911
- Replies: 49
-
