Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[ruth]

Hey All - I, for one, am loving all the great debate. First serious debate/discussion I've seen on here.

Geebs - I think she's a beauty - one of the prettiest I've seen so far. I love her copper collar. I haven't seen it on many birds posted. And I think he's going to be nice looking also. I think the French allowed for up to 10% "spotting" on chest and it's my personal preference.

 

[Cowgirlgrace]

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Here he is. Kind of hard to see it though. I really love this roo. He didn't develop the white until a month or so ago until after I had already done my culling. I kind of have to use him since I only have one other who is a little lighter bodied with dark mahogany and no mossiness. The one with the white in tail looks a little squirrel tailed in the photo but it's not always like that and he is a very nice Copper color with some mossiness but not too much to help with my hens that are light on the copper. My primary goal is the egg color but I don't want to wander too far from the SOP as I still want them to look like BCM. I don't show and everyone I have sold to are not interested in showing. Only the egg color. I don't want to be so focused on SOP that I lose the egg color since that is what people who buy from me want. But I'm not out to make the buck at the expense of the bird. I still cull pretty heavily but I can only do so much with what I have to work with. I bring in new hatching eggs every year but I really want to get a line going and stick with it. I don't get too discouraged, I just keep plugging away as I have the money and the eggs I'm getting are good to great. So many breeds bred strictly for show hardly lay any eggs because I think some people forget that chickens are suppose to lay them.

 

[geebs]

Overall nice rooster… .. This is a good starter one… good flames in the chest… good color on the ear coverts… Good comb.. Good color horn… good posture and general shape.. good legs and feet.. Good colored shanks VERY GOOD copper balance… (the hard achievement)

Points for generation two…(his babies) less length in the tail coverts, a cleaner looking comb..Hopefully the white will molt out.. a little better feathering to the outside toe.. needs a little more feathing on the leg (easy fix)

No discouraging the use of this rooster.


Thanks for sharing your picture. Good picture also.. Gives us a pretty good look... unlike my last rooster post.

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Here he is. Kind of hard to see it though. I really love this roo. He didn't develop the white until a month or so ago until after I had already done my culling. I kind of have to use him since I only have one other who is a little lighter bodied with dark mahogany and no mossiness. The one with the white in tail looks a little squirrel tailed in the photo but it's not always like that and he is a very nice Copper color with some mossiness but not too much to help with my hens that are light on the copper. My primary goal is the egg color but I don't want to wander too far from the SOP as I still want them to look like BCM. I don't show and everyone I have sold to are not interested in showing. Only the egg color. I don't want to be so focused on SOP that I lose the egg color since that is what people who buy from me want. But I'm not out to make the buck at the expense of the bird. I still cull pretty heavily but I can only do so much with what I have to work with. I bring in new hatching eggs every year but I really want to get a line going and stick with it. I don't get too discouraged, I just keep plugging away as I have the money and the eggs I'm getting are good to great. So many breeds bred strictly for show hardly lay any eggs because I think some people forget that chickens are suppose to lay them.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/46389_dscn2517.jpg

I would have to cull this male because of the white feather. Does he have white underneath of the hackle feathers ?

 

[Wynette]

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Question for geebsie - WHY less length in tail coverts?

 

[snowbird]

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This is the type tail the French Standard calls for, and what I like myself in my BC, the American Standard calls for the tail to be open moderatively spread. How wide is her back ? She looks fine to me but at the shows I have seen Marans at they were picking females with a little more copper and a little under the head at top of the neck.

The best pullet BC I have seen on here was the one Pink showed a few days ago.

 

[fowlman01]

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The qualifying meet for the BC's is in Feb. There needs to be 50 GOOD BC's to pass the test. The 50 birds need to be an equal mix of C,H,K,P....so 25 cocks/cockerels of Good type and color are needed to pass. I won't be there, but the qualifying judge is scheduled to be Pat Malone of TX. Past President of the APA. The current President of the APA and former member of the APA Standard Revision Committee will also be present to oversee the meet. This will not be an automatic acceptance of the variety....they will have to be of good type and color. Males and females. I would guess that there will be plenty of pics available after the judging.

Walt Leonard

I have the same question I've had since I started reading about APA proposed standards ----

If the serious breeders out there are having to kill/cull "hundreds" of birds to get one that meets most of the APA proposed standards, then why is that the standard? Shouldn't it be more like the "rare exception"???? If they've killed off literally hundreds to get that one and bring it to the show, does that mean that it will reproduce true?

Like Don, I'd like to see all the "near standard" birds - and if you have one, do you have more than one - are they reproducing true - or are you still killing them off by the hundreds to get one?

Okay - you can substitute the word "cull" for "kill" but I believe most of you keep talking about your very full freezers and having to buy extra freezers and have made no secret of the fact that you are killing the substandards by the "hundreds". And, since the check list seems to keep growing and growing, of every other little thing to look for, I'd probably have to "cull" my entire flock since I don't think any of them would make the cut either. I know a lot of other BCM owners/breeders have now grown discouraged and given up.

I know when I ask, what to me seems so obvious, it gets a lot of people all heated up and I don't understand why. If the BCM breeders out there can repeatedly post about how many they have to kill or cull to get the one, I would think they would be willing to talk about "why"???

In my simple, cave woman, logic - a standard should mean the birds meet that description more often than not.

My response is this: The APA received affidavits from the Marans folks saying that the BC's bred true and have done so for the five years that they have raised them. We don't do on site inspections and have to believe what people sign on the forms. The true test is the qualifying meet. The BC's failed the first test. We are allowing a second qualifying meet because they were very close to qualifying and the young birds showed considerable improvement.

Your cave woman logic is correct! The birds should meet the Standard more often than not. This is what we will find out at the meet. I attended the first meet and could easily see before the judging that they were not going to pass without even handling the birds. Since then I have seen BC Marans at other shows and what I have seen is a dramatic improvement in the variety. Most of the people on this site don't seem to raise "hundreds" of birds, so I'm not sure who is killing so many Marans. Before I had my breeding skills...such as they are...I raised hundreds of barred Plymouth Rocks, which have been in the SOP since 1874. I raise so many because I wanted the very best show birds, not because they were not true to the breed.

It is almost always harder to get a good male bird.....there is a lot more going on with them than the hens.

Walt

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
I have the same question I've had since I started reading about APA proposed standards ----

If the serious breeders out there are having to kill/cull "hundreds" of birds to get one that meets most of the APA proposed standards, then why is that the standard? Shouldn't it be more like the "rare exception"???? If they've killed off literally hundreds to get that one and bring it to the show, does that mean that it will reproduce true?

Like Don, I'd like to see all the "near standard" birds - and if you have one, do you have more than one - are they reproducing true - or are you still killing them off by the hundreds to get one?

Okay - you can substitute the word "cull" for "kill" but I believe most of you keep talking about your very full freezers and having to buy extra freezers and have made no secret of the fact that you are killing the substandards by the "hundreds". And, since the check list seems to keep growing and growing, of every other little thing to look for, I'd probably have to "cull" my entire flock since I don't think any of them would make the cut either. I know a lot of other BCM owners/breeders have now grown discouraged and given up.

I know when I ask, what to me seems so obvious, it gets a lot of people all heated up and I don't understand why. If the BCM breeders out there can repeatedly post about how many they have to kill or cull to get the one, I would think they would be willing to talk about "why"???

In my simple, cave woman, logic - a standard should mean the birds meet that description more often than not.

My response is this: The APA received affidavits from the Marans folks saying that the BC's bred true and have done so for the five years that they have raised them. We don't do on site inspections and have to believe what people sign on the forms. The true test is the qualifying meet. The BC's failed the first test. We are allowing a second qualifying meet because they were very close to qualifying and the young birds showed considerable improvement.

Your cave woman logic is correct! The birds should meet the Standard more often than not. This is what we will find out at the meet. I attended the first meet and could easily see before the judging that they were not going to pass without even handling the birds. Since then I have seen BC Marans at other shows and what I have seen is a dramatic improvement in the variety. Most of the people on this site don't seem to raise "hundreds" of birds, so I'm not sure who is killing so many Marans. Before I had my breeding skills...such as they are...I raised hundreds of barred Plymouth Rocks, which have been in the SOP since 1874. I raise so many because I wanted the very best show birds, not because they were not true to the breed.

It is almost always harder to get a good male bird.....there is a lot more going on with them than the hens.

Walt

Walt, I am pretty much talked out at this point and will repeat what I have said before. This year I have raised over 600 BC and have culled down to 40-50 females and 7 males. When I cull anything with White wing and tail feathers and white undercolor in side of hackle I do not believe I am going overboard. Lots of the birds I have seen are short narrow back birds and are not going to produce widechest and wide long backs. The Marans that are showing up with almost white legs and the brown soft feathers under the vent are showing they have Wheaten blood mixed within. I will not vouch for anything someone else stated that the BC will breed true. My main thing with all this is that they should resemble Marans if they are going to be called Marans. Don

 

[ruth]

Quote:
I have the same question I've had since I started reading about APA proposed standards ----

If the serious breeders out there are having to kill/cull "hundreds" of birds to get one that meets most of the APA proposed standards, then why is that the standard? Shouldn't it be more like the "rare exception"???? If they've killed off literally hundreds to get that one and bring it to the show, does that mean that it will reproduce true?

Like Don, I'd like to see all the "near standard" birds - and if you have one, do you have more than one - are they reproducing true - or are you still killing them off by the hundreds to get one?

Okay - you can substitute the word "cull" for "kill" but I believe most of you keep talking about your very full freezers and having to buy extra freezers and have made no secret of the fact that you are killing the substandards by the "hundreds". And, since the check list seems to keep growing and growing, of every other little thing to look for, I'd probably have to "cull" my entire flock since I don't think any of them would make the cut either. I know a lot of other BCM owners/breeders have now grown discouraged and given up.

I know when I ask, what to me seems so obvious, it gets a lot of people all heated up and I don't understand why. If the BCM breeders out there can repeatedly post about how many they have to kill or cull to get the one, I would think they would be willing to talk about "why"???

In my simple, cave woman, logic - a standard should mean the birds meet that description more often than not.

My response is this: The APA received affidavits from the Marans folks saying that the BC's bred true and have done so for the five years that they have raised them. We don't do on site inspections and have to believe what people sign on the forms. The true test is the qualifying meet. The BC's failed the first test. We are allowing a second qualifying meet because they were very close to qualifying and the young birds showed considerable improvement.

Your cave woman logic is correct! The birds should meet the Standard more often than not. This is what we will find out at the meet. I attended the first meet and could easily see before the judging that they were not going to pass without even handling the birds. Since then I have seen BC Marans at other shows and what I have seen is a dramatic improvement in the variety. Most of the people on this site don't seem to raise "hundreds" of birds, so I'm not sure who is killing so many Marans. Before I had my breeding skills...such as they are...I raised hundreds of barred Plymouth Rocks, which have been in the SOP since 1874. I raise so many because I wanted the very best show birds, not because they were not true to the breed.

It is almost always harder to get a good male bird.....there is a lot more going on with them than the hens.

Walt

Thanks Walt - I always appreciate your input. No, the people on this site aren't raising hundreds of birds, they are stating they are culling hundreds of birds (just to get the one or two) - just read back through past posts. For a while, someone on the outside looking in (and remember folks, there are a lot of those people) would have thought it was a "Who Culled the Most" contest. And, one of the reasons I asked my questions this morning and started the debate was because the more recent posts seem to be people giving up on the breed or culling even heavier. While I understand that it is necessary and everyone is now trying to reach the bar, so to speak, I'm still asking "isn't it maybe set too high"???

Didn't I read somewhere that the BC Marans could be a blue ribbon winner and be the most "perfect" bird in the world but, in France, if it didn't lay a dark egg (#4 or better) it would not be considered a Marans???? (I've since read the debate where no one could prove where that statement came from so I have no idea if it's true but I'm betting it is.) So, in France, in general, the bird is more about the very darkest egg and not so much about whether or not there's brown fuzz under vent. Of course I understand they also have their shows and their standards and their blue ribbon winners, but they've been having them for over a hundred years and the birds lay dark brown eggs.

It's kind of like some of the dog show winners I've known (and I'm referring to the dog). It might have been Best of Breed but it made the Monty Python Village Idiot look like a Rhodes Scholar. It could no more do the job it was originally bred to do if it's very life depended upon it. My point....sometimes the "show people" lose site of the forest for the trees.

And, as long as I'm known for putting my foot in my mouth......I would seriously challenge anyone who signed a paper that said their birds have bred true (meaning - reproduced looking like the bird they bring to show) for at least five years. So those showing must have not only been breeding them for five years but have been able to produce cookie cutter images?? To paraphrase Don...."Show me the birds."

 

[ruth]

On second thought - is there any way I could get the names and contact numbers for all the people who swore they have been raising them for five years and they have been reproducing true to APA SOP for five years? Gee..that would save me, and everyone else, a lot of trouble. We could just order birds from them and then start breeding and selling them. No more culls. Think of all the time and work we could save, not to mention LIVES.

p.s. I hope everyone else sees the humor in this......