Mareks experience needed. prelim results pg 9

[klf73]

yeah, the 2 I put in "chairs" ate and ate and ate. I thought maybe the chair was making the legs worse(remember, initially I thought trauma to legs) so I put them back in the brooder. One died within a few days and the other has horrible control, flops all over and seemed to be the only one to survive this, but if Mareks is confirmed I will cull due to the shedding of the virus, besides it could never go outside and survive

(eta- stays on hocks and has no coordinated movement) . They don't have loss of appetite, just inability to get to the food and water due to the issues they are having. The partially paralyzed one eats and drinks just fine, poop fine

I am done trying to play detective. I have searched and searched and ALL symptoms point to Mareks. In my research I have found that even though they are vaccinated, if they were exposed to Mareks before the vaccine took effect they would catch it. The antibodies take at least 10 days to provide immunity. They can show symptoms as early as 3 weeks, though not common. Also as early as 6 weeks but not usual. I would LOVE to be wrong because if the rest act typically they will ALL start showing signs soon. This just sucks

I will post when I get answers from the vet/AG people.. I appreciate the help

 

[kelar]

You are right - it sure points to Mareks & exposure prior to developing immunity would make them susceptible. However, it does not follow that they will all get it - Mareks is a weird disease. It seems to target some birds and all the rest will be fine. Also, sometimes the vaccine just doesn't work with some birds - I can't find a clear answer as to why, but perhaps some glitch in the immune system of individual birds. I believe the vaccine is supposed to be 80-90% effective, but those are just numbers Something could have gone wrong in the vaccination procedure too. Sure hope you find an answer and share your findings with us.

 

[klf73]

ok, the one death in a different coop I am starting to think is unrelated which would mean I still have this isolated. The brooders were only next to each other for a short time and there was a wall so maybe I was lucky. The death in the other flock may be the Aspergillosis. I hadn't had time to clean out that coop since I moved them a few days ago, before it died. My son was in charge of taking care of them(that paticular group) as my other kids were sick and I needed help. When I went to clean it out I noticed some moldy food in the corner(not near the other brooder, far corner opposite). Now this could have happened after they moved as it was sitting for a few days but it points in that direction especially after talking to ds(13). Apparently he sets a water container for another pet(dog, bowl cleaned daily) on the cage to open the door so there must have been water leakage(which he won't do anymore). He also told me it was walking around "different" than the others, after he described it to me it sounds like the drunk walk. He also said it had a hard time breathing, in other words, it was gasping every now and then. That group is still separated just to be sure

. So, no other birds are showing symptoms and I hope it stays that way...still gonna get at least one tested to confirm Mareks and if another of the affected die I will necropsy to inspect. I have been researching pictures so I should be able to identify. wow, this is a LOT of work...

 

[seminolewind]

Kelar, with the info you've shared and some more reading, I can't discount Marek's with it's assortment of symptoms. And yes they can have the gasp if it involves their vagus (?) nerve. So Krista's gasper may have Marek's as well.

Aside from the paralysis and gasping now and then, they act normal. My one roo chick seems to be walking better now.

Soooo, I think with mine I will have to assume that each of the 4 chicks (12 wks now), may have all had the same thing (Marek's), since they can have the gasp.

Kelar, can you give me your thoughts on this?

I have most of my 4 year old flock. I also have a separate silkie flock, 2 are 3.5 years old.

Starting with 4 years ago, I have a flock . 2 years later I buy one silkie pullet. 6 months later my silkie roo dev. paralysis up to his neck, one foot forward, one back, and a cloudy eye. Vet did a necropsy and did not find any tumors. A year after that the bought silkie died, she must have wasted away with no other symptoms. Over the past 2 years, I've hatched my own 6 silkies and no problems, and a batch of polish under the silkies with no problems. Now this New batch of 10 polish hatched under silkies , 2 dead, staggering, paralysis, gasp. One wasted away and died. Another roo, still alive , staggering and gasp, not dead yet. The staggering ones had a good apetite.

The main flock, all born here. Then 1.5 year ago, I hatch 2 chicks in the bator, and a friend gives me a chick, who grow up together. At 3 months old, the 2 hatched get coccidiosis and are treated. 3 months after that the gift chick wastes away and dies. 9 months later one of the hatched chick wastes away and dies. The 3rd is a big healthy roo still here.

14 months ago, I hatch alot of chicks, selling most. The ones here are fine. Then 12 months ago I hatch some chicks and out of 8, one wastes away and dies. The others are fine.

I would say Marek's but this scenario just doesn't seem to have a timeline that Marek's would (?)
I do have crows that make themselves at home here.
So out of the past 4 years, 40-50 chickens, 9 died from either wasting away , or paralysis, or paralysis and the gasp.

Can you help make sense of this?

 

[kelar]

I could probably help more with a bit more information. I could not quite piece it together from what you wrote. For each bird that died, what age was it and which symptoms did it have? You mentioned chicks with possible mareks, but it sounds like they are still alive? Mareks is a killer - unless the bird has an extremely rare recovery, the tumors continue to grow and eventually kill the bird. How long have they had the paralysis? I'm wondering Seminole if your birds are dying from cocci rather than mareks although you may have both things going on. The wasting could be from the cancer, but it is also very typical of cocci. What did you treat them with and was there any follow up treatment? Did you have histopathology done on the necropsied bird? A marek's bird may NOT show evidence of tumors on gross necropsy - they need to do a histo and look for the cancerous cells, but they usually don't do it unless specifically requested. I know it can be very frustrating to try and figure out what the heck is going on as so many symptoms are similar. I've gotten to the point where I have nearly every dead bird necropsied now unless I am positive about what killed it. It's been quite an education.

 

[klf73]

maybe I jumped the gun....I have another orp that can't walk

 

[WooingWyandotte]

I'm so sorry! Hopefully it isn't Mareks, it could be botulism?

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
I've just started to do necropsies.
All the birds had been treated for coccidiosis because of them losing weight. The one that died today was quiet, wasting away for the past 3 weeks. 2 weeks ago she was brought into my house and treated for cocci for a full 5 days, and set back out with the flock. She was 11 weeks old. Internally, I really couldn't find anything wrong, maybe I should have taken pics anyway. But when I cut the proventriculus open the smell was real foul, and even with bleach, I could not get the odor off my hands. It's 4 hours later now and the smell is gone. I wish it was that simple that they had coccidiosis, but, If someone hadn't looked right , the first thing I did was treat for coccidiosis because it's the most common. They were all treated with sulfadimethoxine for 5 days, and some were treated again with Corrid

The 2 recent ones with paralysis were culled. The live 11 week old roo right now who staggers and loses his balance and does the gasp -actually looks better. He's separated. About a week ago, one day he was jumping on a silkie, the next day, he was wing walking and falling.

The chickens:

first roo 2 years ago, was 1.5 years old, a silkie. He had perfect classic signs of Marek's (neural). Staggering, falling over, > paralysis of legs>of wings> one eye turned cloudy, loss of neck control, sat with one leg back one leg forward. But sat in a cage on my patio and crowed every morning. The vet did a quick necropsy on him and couldn't see any tumors. He was ill for 2 weeks prior to euthanizing him.

Silkie, 6 months old when died, wasted away. There was no notice till she was found dead.

Orp, 6 months old, wasted away and died. She had been treated for cocci. Wasting for a few months

BLRW, 1 year old, wasted on and off for 4 months then died. She had been treated for cocci

Orp roo, -8 months old, wasted away and died. He had been treated for cocci. Wasted for 2 months

Recent, 2 chicks , at 8 weeks old, paralysis, stagger, and gasp, culled after a week, had treated for cocci, always had an appetite. Both died with full stomachs.

Today, chick was 11 weeks old, had been wasting for 3 weeks, treated for cocci last week . Died today. She had food in her crop and her gizzard.

Today, roo, still alive, 11 weeks old, started staggering, falling over, wing walking, and the gasp a week ago. He's now actually walking pretty good alot of times.

That's 9 in two years that I really don't know what they have, except for the first one. I've had 30-40 chickens in the last 4 years, all ages, and new hatches as well. This is the first time I've had several all get sick from one hatch.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
I'm sorry. I'm going to call around for a lab for the one that's still alive. I can't cull him right now, he looks too happy and loves food. But when it's time.........
It seems like you're going thru the same thing.
Krista, don't beat yourself up about finding moldy grain in a corner. Aspergillus is everywhere on everything. I'm thinking that one has more to do with a poor immune system.

It looks like Marek's can have any symptoms it wants or doesn't want. All these things are so vague.

With that vaccine, it can prevent chicks from growing the tumors, but not anything else. The vaccine can make them a nice healthy looking carrier of the disease.

 

[kelar]

So sorry that both of you are going through this. I really think this is Mareks showing it's ugly faces - it can attack in so many ways and display so many symptoms. Seminole, it sounds like you have covered your bases on the other possible causes, so in spite of the various ages the birds have been affected, I'd guess Mareks is the culprit. I've had very good luck with a vaccination program, isolation and vaccination of chicks when hatched, and vaccination and quarantine of all new birds coming in. Yes, they can still get the virus, but I can attest to the fact that before I started vaccinating, I lost birds out of nearly every hatch. Now, I very rarely see a case of Mareks, but when I do, I cull immediately to minimize the shedding of the virus that is occurring. I know they seem so healthy except for the paralysis, it breaks your heart to do it, but I have way too many birds to risk all of them for one bird. I treat suspected cases like they are carrying the plague (which they are in a sense) and have to put sentiment aside. I would be sure and obtain necropsy and histopathology on the next suspected case to confirm what you are dealing with and then implement a vaccination program as the virus is probably with you to stay. It's either on your premises and/or being shed by an adult carrier. There's just no way of knowing. Please keep us posted.