maremma sheepdogs

[watchdogps]

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That isn't prey drive, that is puppyhood. Any breed is going to do things like that if left unsupervised, though some individual dogs will be worse than others. He stopped after a couple years because he grew up.

Most large breed dogs are very much puppies until 2-3 years old.

X2 although I do know of some asds that are way too prey driven to be good lgds, I also know pyrs and kuvasz that way. There are always going to be individuals within a breed that do not have the correct breed temperament. Just like there are dogs that have the wrong coat, color or ears. Its just not always thought about bc you can see temperament with your eyes.
This is why I tell people to ask the person they are getting the dog from "what behaviors make you choose a pup for a working home?" They should be able to explain what they look for. If they can't or just tell you they are all good, or that as long as you raise them with stock they will be good, you might want to find someone else.

 

[Kev]

I understood prey drive as interest in moving objects and chasing them. Tossed balls, towel being dragged, flapping chickens.... He as a pup was VERY interested in moving objects and 'chased' no matter what it was. That's what made him such a difficult dog in my situation, he'd get too excited by chicken noises and motions and go on a killing spree. His 'couple years' was about 6 or 7 before he started stopping killing chickens so bad. That's well past lgd puppyhood of 2-3 yrs?

I had another dog, a mix that had zero prey drive as defined above. If I threw a ball, he just sat there like it was a total non-event. This dog never killed a chicken.

The last comment confirms that there is prey drive present in some lgds & it being a bad problem in some asds. How do you define prey drive?

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

They have been 80lbs-ish in italy for centuries.
They do their job as so. Italy clearly did not need a150 lb lgd.
A good breeder should be preserving the breed, not "improving" it. If one needs a huge lgd, there are other breeds to choose from.

You must be mistaken, since my dogs parents CAME directly from Italy, and they were both as large as him.
There is no better way to "preserve the breed" than to breed original bloodlines from Italy
They were bred to be capable of killing wolves

It's not just genetics, but much better nutrition that makes them tend to be larger now,

Humans are larger now then they were 100 years ago, with no "special breeding"​

 

[LotsaChicken]

Quote:
You must be mistaken, since my dogs parents CAME directly from Italy, and they were both as large as him.
There is no better way to "preserve the breed" than to breed original bloodlines from Italy
They were bred to be capable of killing wolves

It's not just genetics, but much better nutrition that makes them tend to be larger now,

Humans are larger now then they were 100 years ago, with no "special breeding"

She's not mistaken. At that weight your dogs do not meet the breed standard neither here, nor in Europe:

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/MaremmaSheepdog

http://www.maremmaclub.com/standard.html

Your males shouldn't be over 100 lbs and your females shouldn't be over 88.

 

[dainerra]

I wonder if the Italian breeders are like the German breeders of GSDs? When the breed was first coming to America, breeders here purchased "the best dogs Germany would part with" to add to their breeding programs. Do you know what those dogs were? The ones who weren't approved to be bred in Germany. Or the ones who were a bit over-sized. You know, the ones they were happy to sell across the water. This still happens today - the only way to really have access to buying some of the best dogs in Germany is to know someone in the country who can speak on your behalf with the kennel.

Not saying that you can't import an AWESOME GSD for your breeding program, but it's going to cost an arm and a leg. The last person I know who imported a brood grump paid over $10,000. She isn't a top-of-the-line dog, but at least she is Koered.

Again, not saying this is what happened in your case, but I do see it a LOT in many breeds of dogs that originate in other countries. The best are kept "in house" unless you have someone overseas willing to help and work on your behalf.

 

[TDM]

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So, if a female is 89 pounds, does that mean it is no longer a true maremma?

I bet it wasn't farmers who need working LGDs in support of their livelihood who wrote those specifications. Sounds as if it were written by dog show people.

 

[watchdogps]

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Yep, still true. I have seen some imports I dont even thnk are purebred. Especially so in breeds that dont really have registries.

 

[watchdogps]

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No, it just means she isnt ideal. Just as a yellow lab should have black pigments, not brown, but a "dudley" nosed lab is stil a lab. It's just not ideal.

The standard does state they "can" be larger, but the weights specified are the preferred.

 

[watchdogps]

Quote:
You missed part of my comment, I said:

" I do know of some asds that are way too prey driven to be good lgds, I also know pyrs and kuvasz that way. There are always going to be individuals within a breed that do not have the correct breed temperament. "

My point was that it had nothing to do with the ASD part, that happens in every breed. While you have a higher likelyhood of getting an effective LGD with a breed bred for that, there will be dogs who are not suitable.

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
So, if a female is 89 pounds, does that mean it is no longer a true maremma?

I bet it wasn't farmers who need working LGDs in support of their livelihood who wrote those specifications. Sounds as if it were written by dog show people.

I can't speak for the marema, but the standard is written by whoever creates the breed. In the case of the gsd, it was the Capt. Honestly, size is a huge factor for a working dog. Too small and they won't be effective against predators. Too large and they won't have the stamina and agility to be effective against predators.

We get this all the time in the gsd. People saying that they are breeding "old fashioned" dogs - bigger and heavier. Except that the breed was never meant to be that. They say "oh breeders wrote that standard" and other excuses.