Margo is in Trouble

[micstrachan]

Depends on where in Boulder Creek. Half an hour?

 

[Granny Hatchet]

Casportpony talked me through doing this and her pictures were really worth a thousand words. It sounds much scarier then it really is. The hen I had was very sick. For me, it was much better to try and fail then to live with myself by not trying. As long as you have good light so you hit the right hole and your tube is the right length not much can go wrong. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Kathy Golla]

It’s ok. It sounds incredibly hard, but like everyone says gets easier each time. Easy for me to say that’s never done tube feeding. Maybe I should learn before it becomes an emergency.
Michelle can still do the same thing in liquid form on a smaller scale with a syringe on the right side of the mouth, right ? ( for tomorrow). I do that with my infamous antibiotics and calcium, although it’s not more than 5 ccs ever at a time.My hens do fight me pretty hard on it, though, but at least I know I’m getting it down them and they aren’t aspirating it.

 

[casportpony]

Depends on where in Boulder Creek. Half an hour?

I'm not sure where she is, but this is her website:
http://henharbor.org/

 

[Tesumph]

Have you ever taken a sick hen to the avian vet, and the hen has a fever?
Fever = infection = Rx is antibiotics.

Oviduct infections are very common in hens and symptoms mimic what Margo is exhibiting.

I don’t mean to be ... pedantic but I have experience in this... what an avian vet would prescribe for this possibility.

As you suggest, read the thread thoroughly to catch the nuances of discussions that have been previously covered.

I’m currently in school to be a vet; worked in clinics. The bird’s temperature was never taken and a fever is not immediate cause for antibiotics anyway.
I’ve read the thread a couple times now and the confusion remains.

Tesumph, I think I might have been the first to suggest antibiotics, but I was under the impression from what all I read that it sounded like EYP (I did not see the post about her laying an egg) and that if it was EYP, she could have had an internal tear or rupture. I didn't suggest the type of antibiotic, but did suggest a trip to the vet for correct medication and dosage as anything else would be a 'best guess' pitch.

Whenever I take my birds to the vet, antibiotics are typically given as a 'just in case'. I am also given a dewormer at the same time- My vet says this is to cover all the bases. Its not a bad thing to spring to antibiotics when a bird is sick, they sometimes can go very fast, and its not like the proper protocols of chicken health have been tweaked and established in a nice textbook fashion... I'm sure better knowledge may be out there somewhere, but its always eluded me, and I search (well, used to- I've been battling my own declining health lately) this topic a lot. Its a shame that such information can't be more widespread so that regular vets can know exactly how to treat- then again the practice of medicine is called a 'practice' for a reason... its never set in stone. Learned that through my own frequent health woes- sometimes its better to be left for a bit and other times its better to do something than nothing. Its very difficult!!!!! And even sometimes the so called 'experts' get it totally wrong. Its not set in stone.

As far as your question goes for hens with EYP to lay eggs- no because the problem is that it the out is blocked and the hen will continue to lay internally until it succumbs to this blockage, ...unless there is some other obstruction which they can get the egg around. I would say it could be possible, but most likely not. I agree with everyone else that it sounds like it is not EYP at this point... again... my bad for not seeing the post that said Margo laid an egg before I posted that. I wish someone would have pointed out to me my error. I was trying to read quickly.

I still think giving an antibiotic is just fine when a bird is looking bad. That's what my vet always always does for me. It should be noted too that we are going by what we hear reported and share our best guesses. I will have to say this- I'm stumped and amazed because Margo looks great in some of the video and other videos not so great. Then again, animals have a will to survive and sometimes you can't know they are sick until the very last. So I'm stumped. Stumped but hoping that something will be figured out to give this hen some help.

That's my thought process at least. As was said before- everyone's different when it comes to guessing at what's the best thing to do. .... sadly.

Thanks for this. The vets I have worked under have been very wary of overprescribing antibiotics and I learned a lot about how much hot water “safe treating” with antibiotics can put one in. I realize that everyone’s experiences with this is different, though.
I agree that something is better than nothing, even more so with animals notorious for hiding symptoms. I just hope the experimental treatments won’t cause more problems than they’re solving.

And to the OP.. I was terrified the first time I tube fed something too. You will feel the tube sliding down her throat and sitting in her crop; once it’s in it’s easy sailing and they chill out. It’s definitely easier on a sick bird. Don’t stress too much!
Best of luck to you and your girl.

 

[Kathy Golla]

Very interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing.
I think you hit it when you said it seems there are differing vet treatment protocols for chickens across the world.
All I know is 1) my hens had a fever ( I mean there was more to the consultation than just temperature, I’m sure you understand) 2) they were feeling terrible 3) they were prescribed antibiotics and 4) after they had the antibiotics they were not feeling terrible.

 

[micstrachan]

Thanks. I feel like I failed Margo today. Everyone’s in bed, and Margo is close to the upper human access door. It makes a bunch of noise because of all the latches, but I could theoretically grab Margo and attempt tube feeding at some point, but I don’t feel ready. I got sort of close with Millie, and practiced having Buttercup in my lap and extending her neck. Turns out Buttercup is the most docile. What makes me most nervous is when they do that upset breathing semi snorting sound. I think technically I can do it, it’s the mental piece I’m having trouble with. If they didn’t fight, I think it would be easy. I’m still considering trying after everyone is good and asleep. Or in the wee dark hours of the morning before they awake.
I agree it’s odd how Margo goes between a bit perky and seeming like she is dying. I’m wondering if she’s responding to the antibiotic, but is getting weaker from not eating and drinking enough. I was able to get her to eat a little more raw egg on the roost. I know it’s not ideal, but maybe that with the grass and a couple wheat berries can help her get through the night, if I don’t tube feed. It was encouraging to see her consume something, even if it wasn’t enough, on her own.
So, for amoxicillin, it should be 250 mg 2x per day for a ~5 lb. bird? I’m pretty sure @azygous has had success with 250mg once per day.

@casportpony , I was going back through the thread (trying to sort out when I gave amoxicillin) and realized I missed your ibuprofen post. Rusty was prescribed ibuprofen by an avian Vet, but I couldn’t remember the dose and couldn’t find any references online. I found it easy to administer to Rusty and may try with Margo. I just think if she’s less uncomfortable, she might be more inclined to eat and drink. Thank you.

 

[azygous]

Late to the party again. But I read what I missed so I'm up to speed.

Michelle, I find it helps a great deal to wrap the patient in a towel, and I even wrap an ACE bandage around the body where the wings are, careful to avoid binding the crop in any way.

This is especially important to keep the patient confined if you're working alone. Once wrapped like a mummy, I stand her back up on her feet on a table or work bench and hold her under my left arm but keeping the left hand free to help the right hand.

I found that cutting the tube down to around eight inches is easier to operate the syringe than to have to stretch my arm way out to get the food into the tube.

I practiced with water for the first time. I was treating an egg bound hen so I needed to hydrate her. I told myself that if I didn't get the tube down the right hole, the patient would gasp and gag and let me know I was starting down the airway.

But it's deceptively easy actually. I just insert the tube into the beak on the right side of the tongue and it goes in pretty easily. It also goes in much easier if you can extend the patient's neck, effectively straightening the channel.

Be prepared for the patient to attempt to spit the tube out. At first, hold the tube in place with your left hand until the patient settles down, which they will, especially when they feel liquid going down into their crop. This seems to have a calming effect.

As for the amoxicillin, it's 250mg per day, not two doses of 250mg twice a day. If you wish to split the dose into two, you will give 125mg in two separate doses.

 

[casportpony]

So, for amoxicillin, it should be 250 mg 2x per day for a ~5 lb. bird? I’m pretty sure @azygous has had success with 250mg once per day.

My vet prescribed 500 mg twice a day for my 8.8 pound bird that had a throat infection, and my smaller hen got 250 mg twice a day. Once a vet prescribed ampicillin injections at 150 mg/kg twice a day.

 

[casportpony]

As for the amoxicillin, it's 250mg per day, not two doses of 250mg twice a day. If you wish to split the dose into two, you will give 125mg in two separate doses.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but do do have a reference that says to use that amount?