Medicated vs Non-Medicated Feed

[Wickedchicken6]

I think I missed Derperella...that was before I joined. I'll have to check that thread out! Thank you.

The only things that changed right at the time of the issues were the feed and the coccidiosis. It seems to be indiscriminant across my breeds so that why I was thinking feed/damage from coccidi or both. But I'm watching for everything; disease and genetic issues...you name it. Even when I've set old eggs on purpose to select for the toughest embryos, I've never had any issues like this.

A relative's getting some chicks from me from my stock. I plan on them going right from my inner house to their setup. They use Amprol in the water. I can get feed back.
I'm planning on using medicate feed with Amprol and introducing my own chicks to the flock early from a dog crate so they are exposed from the get go. I have Amprol on hand.

Question: From my understanding, coccidi are species specific, correct? A chicken won't get coccidi from a cow for example. Is coccidi specific to chickens spread by wild birds? I started with a few adult chickens, so I know where mine comes from. If a person starts with chicks that are straight from the incubator so to speak...are they at risk from getting it from the environment if it's been clean from chickens?

 

[speckledhen]

I think I missed Derperella...that was before I joined. I'll have to check that thread out! Thank you.

The only things that changed right at the time of the issues were the feed and the coccidiosis. It seems to be indiscriminant across my breeds so that why I was thinking feed/damage from coccidi or both. But I'm watching for everything; disease and genetic issues...you name it. Even when I've set old eggs on purpose to select for the toughest embryos, I've never had any issues like this.

A relative's getting some chicks from me from my stock. I plan on them going right from my inner house to their setup. They use Amprol in the water. I can get feed back.
I'm planning on using medicate feed with Amprol and introducing my own chicks to the flock early from a dog crate so they are exposed from the get go. I have Amprol on hand.

Question: From my understanding, coccidi are species specific, correct? A chicken won't get coccidi from a cow for example. Is coccidi specific to chickens spread by wild birds? I started with a few adult chickens, so I know where mine comes from. If a person starts with chicks that are straight from the incubator so to speak...are they at risk from getting it from the environment if it's been clean from chickens?

Yes, they are supposedly species specific, so avians get forms of cocci different from goats, for example. Yes, even straight from incubator to clean ground, they get cocci. The oocysts that cause it live in the soil.

 

[Wickedchicken6]

Ok...that's what I understood.

"These gametes fuse to form an oocyst, which is then released in its non-infectious, unsporulated form through the faeces of the host" which is from Wikipedia.

How does the ground become infected if there's been no chickens. Carried on the wind?

 

[Lady of McCamley]

I think I missed Derperella...that was before I joined. I'll have to check that thread out! Thank you.

The only things that changed right at the time of the issues were the feed and the coccidiosis. It seems to be indiscriminant across my breeds so that why I was thinking feed/damage from coccidi or both. But I'm watching for everything; disease and genetic issues...you name it. Even when I've set old eggs on purpose to select for the toughest embryos, I've never had any issues like this.

A relative's getting some chicks from me from my stock. I plan on them going right from my inner house to their setup. They use Amprol in the water. I can get feed back.
I'm planning on using medicate feed with Amprol and introducing my own chicks to the flock early from a dog crate so they are exposed from the get go. I have Amprol on hand.

Question: From my understanding, coccidi are species specific, correct? A chicken won't get coccidi from a cow for example. Is coccidi specific to chickens spread by wild birds? I started with a few adult chickens, so I know where mine comes from. If a person starts with chicks that are straight from the incubator so to speak...are they at risk from getting it from the environment if it's been clean from chickens?

Yes, per my Vet Tech daughter, coccidia is species specific, so no your puppy won't get it from the chickens nor vice versa. Poultry even carry different types, so turkey vs. chicken won't pass.

Coccidia, being protozoa, live in the soil, and there are many different strains. It can be spread by shoes (from other farms), clothing, feed bags, anything that has dirt or feces (including car tires).

Chicks in the brooder having not been in contact with the soil often become overloaded with oocysts when they get onto ground. Having no immunity developed, they become sick as the coccidia mass produce in their guts.

The amount of Amprolium in feed is not meant to cure coccidia infestation but merely slow it so that the chick has enough time to develop a natural immunity to it, which is the suggestion for feeding for the first 12 weeks or so. (It is wise to also feed pro-biotics and ACV to further support the gut flora and the immune system).

If you have an overgrowth, which is what coccidiosis is, then you need the stronger concentration of Amprolium which is found in Corid.

Overgrowth is caused by many factors, general immunity of the birds to your type of soil coccidia, general environmental conditions (warm and wet is key), crowding conditions, litter control, and general load of coccidia in the soil in the area. Some areas have much more problems than others. My wet Oregon has some heavily loaded areas where coccidiosis is almost a constant problem.

I have done both. Chicks with medicated feed and chicks without.

My broody hatch chicks I generally do not put on medicated feed as momma helps with the immune building with her poop from point of hatch. Those chicks grow and mature without infection. I have had signs of B vitamin deficiency in broody hatched chicks who were on medicated feed. I removed the medicated feed, added B vitamins, and they were resolved.

My feed store chicks that are artificially brooded then placed into the grow out pen or placed under a foster broody, almost to the last one I have had to use medicated feed or risk a coccidiosis outbreak. (I've tried it both ways and have learned to regret not putting feed stores or brooder hatched chicks on medicated feed at the start for about 6 weeks).

If I buy pullets or an adult bird, I put them on medicated feed during their isolation period so that they can adjust to the possible different strains in my soil. (And limit the oocysts of whatever strain they are pooping.)

I'm also very careful that no one comes onto my bird yard with shoes from another farm. They use my boots as I don't want to infect my flock with a different strain of coccidia. Wild animals carry soil from different areas, which is how they can spread it as well.

The strains of coccidia differ in strength and ability to cause problems, with some much more damaging than others. Oocysts are hard to get rid of once they arrive in your soil, and can have an ever escalating build up before you see clinical signs of disease, so litter control, field rotation, and bio-security are essential.

I prefer non-medicated, but I have learned that there are appropriate times to use medicated and have saved myself from scarred birds who never flourish after a bad coccidiosis (having scarred intestines that slow down digestion and their overall immunity as immunity starts in the gut...been there, done that).

My thoughts on the matter, which I know differ from others. Each flock keeper has to assess their environment and bird stock to determine which course is best for them.

LofMc

 

[speckledhen]

I appreciate your post LoMc! I think that intestines that are scarred can be often due to not catching the infection at the outset, which can admittedly be very easy to miss, especially with larger groups of chicks. The longer they are infected, the worse the damage, is what I've found. And I also think that some individual chicks are not as strong as others and will be more susceptible to cocci and less able to fight it off as well. So, that is a factor harder to control.

On the advice of someone I know with a PhD in poultry science, I quit buying Sulmet after I think the medication itself led to more damage in a group of chicks I had years ago than it would have if Corid had been available at the time. He advises to use Corid first and if it is an especially tough case and you feel they are still suffering from the infestation, you can then try the Sulmet to knock it out the rest of the way.

Where you live does have something to do with the way you manage your chicks, absolutely. Humid locations will see more cocci than dry ones. Higher altitude flocks will be different than coastal flocks.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

I appreciate your post LoMc! I think that intestines that are scarred can be often due to not catching the infection at the outset, which can admittedly be very easy to miss, especially with larger groups of chicks. The longer they are infected, the worse the damage, is what I've found. And I also think that some individual chicks are not as strong as others and will be more susceptible to cocci and less able to fight it off as well. So, that is a factor harder to control.

On the advice of someone I know with a PhD in poultry science, I quit buying Sulmet after I think the medication itself led to more damage in a group of chicks I had years ago than it would have if Corid had been available at the time. He advises to use Corid first and if it is an especially tough case and you feel they are still suffering from the infestation, you can then try the Sulmet to knock it out the rest of the way.

Where you live does have something to do with the way you manage your chicks, absolutely. Humid locations will see more cocci than dry ones. Higher altitude flocks will be different than coastal flocks.

I too have found the same with Sulmet (which btw is no longer available on the market, thanks to FDA crack down on all antimicrobials.) It is very, very effective for rank infection, but it is also very harsh on their systems. It is a last ditch effort to prevent immediate loss of life.

My first line of defense is to hatch happy chicks under a healthy broody, fertilized by healthy hens and rooster. I never have any problems with my broody chicks (who hatch in dead of winter or heat of summer).

But, if chicken math gets the better of me, and that green eyed breed greed arises, I have learned to protect my investments of feed store specialties or breeder purchased pullets with a little medicated feed as my area is rift with coccidia since my wet, muddy, Oregon produces wet, muddy runs even with my best efforts. If that doesn't work Corid is on hand. If, oh Lord, I've got a bad outbreak, Sulmet to the rescue...but it is rare that I use any Sulmet any more as I've really attempted litter and field control and have predominately gone to hatching my own stock from my own breeders.

LofMc

 

[RoosterCogburn7]

We treat their coops with DE, along with hay on every clean out. It dries out mites, and parasites naturally, by drying them out. This causes them to die. Bugs like wet areas to propagate.

 

[speckledhen]

We treat their coops with DE, along with hay on every clean out. It dries out mites, and parasites naturally, by drying them out. This causes them to die. Bugs like wet areas to propagate.

DE is very useful to keep the shavings drier in wet period, most definitely. I've used it almost since the beginning for that purpose.

@Lady of McCamley , excellent post, very common sense stuff. I love hatching with broodies, always seems to work out better for the chicks with a good mama in more ways than one. I have a hen in the middle of her hatch right now, second one before she's even a year old. I expect they'll be healthy chicks and get a great education. But, always, the Corid is on hand!

 

[ChicKat]

There's always one in every crowd. This time it's me. And what's funny is that you two know way more about chickens than I know.....

never-the-less I'm a dissenter on this one. My computer's audio isn't working so I wasn't able to access the YouTube video successfully. sorry to maybe be half a bubble short because of that.
However, here's a view from the opposite side of the spectrum.

My climate is humid, my closest feed store only carries medicated BTW for chick starter but about 1/2 mile farther is TSC. I've never had cocci in chicks. (knock on wood) . I've always used medicated feed. Medicated is a real misnomer however because Amprolium isn't a medication, in the sense that it isn't an antibiotic.
Here's what the Nutrena site says (among other things) about the action of the drug:

• Amprolium works by limiting uptake of thiamine (vitamin B1) by the coccidia parasite, which needs the thiamine to actively multiply.
• Amprolium allows some of the coccidia to remain in the system, stimulating creation of antibodies to develop against the disease.

So depriving the parasite of thiamine doesn't necessarily translate to depriving the chick , of thiamine uptake, UNLESS the 'medicted' feed is continued too long - which would be 8-weeks or less. ALSO, leaving some cocci alive in the gut enables the chick to develop the desired immunity without the cocci overwhelming the chick's body.

Corid is Amprolium, is it not? Just the brand name for the active ingredient.

A sharper focus on the question may be, "do I want to put the new hatchlings on preventive care for a month or so, OR do I want them to get sick and then have to cure them?" (and of course, they may never get cocci if there's no Amprolium in the feed - so it isn't completely a yes/no question. For me, it's the prevention approach.

The problem occurs when I have a broody hatch chicks. I don't want to feed chick starter to her, so for that situation I use 'all flock' --or 'flock raiser' type feed.

Just this morning I was thinking how with so many chicks this year -- and their amazing talent for tipping over the waterers, or spilling water in their brooder some other way that I'm glad that there is that little sliver of prevention going on. Brooder sanitation is a big factor in raising chickens -- but when there is a boost, it is really appreciated. Even daily cleaning doesn't quite keep up... (16 chicks went out the door yesterday -- so that will help)

You are right to question the use of medications in chick and chicken raising. There is far too much of it. This is the one that I think is worthwhile. I've only been a chicken keeper for 6-years, but I've never had a cocci incidence. (most of my chicks have been brooder babies and only a very few raised by broody hens - because my breeds tend to be non-setters.)

Good viewpoints and good discussion. It never hurts to dig in and review what we do by habit IMO.

 

[speckledhen]

One problem is that most new chicken folks use medicated feed (and yes, I hate the term applied to amprolium, but what else can we call it? Additive? I'd prefer that, but some have both ampro plus bacitracin or other stuff, which would be medicated) and they do it until the chicks are adults on layer feed. That is much, much too long, but also, I do realize that in some locales, there is little choice. There was not any choice when I first got chickens and they still almost all contracted coccidoisis by around 6-8 weeks old, which is why my take on this issue. Why bother if it doesn't work for me, right? And if you've never seen cocci and have always fed amprolium-laced feed, you truly don't know if it's the feed or they just would not have had it in the first place.

I would submit that using amprolium for one month does nothing to prevent cocci. Most brooder raised chicks, especially in cooler months or cold climates, are not even outside by then because they are not fully feathered. They are most susceptible from 4-8 weeks of age, slightly less so up to 10-12 weeks.

I did not make this to tell folks to never use medicated feed if they feel better doing it, but to offer some wisdom about it.

Two of my main points are these, and it's because of my own experience:

1. Do not assume that because you are feeding medicated feed that your chicks will not have cocci, or that symptoms you are seeing are not cocci because they very well can be.

2. And, conversely, don't assume that just because you have never experienced cocci in chicks that it is due to the amprolium in their feed. It may have nothing at all to do with that.