Michigan

[sarah92480]

I have not chimed in on this chicken discussion. I have many types of pets, and I work in an emergency animal hospital. Clothes are changed before I interact with my own animals- however the possiblity of me bringing something to my own is very high. SO, I provide optimum care to my own, and vaccinate, and hope for the best.

There is no vaccine for FIP that actually works, its a kitten killer- and it can wipe out entire shelters, farms, families very fast when it hits. I lost a kitten to it. Sad stuff. Big fear, best I can do is try to keep the contaminates at work, practice bio-security to the best of MY ability. And dont handle sick kittens and then healthy pets. If I have kittens at home, I dont bring home kittens.

Parvo is a puppy killer. It can live in the soil for two years. I brought home a foster puppy that was parvo positive. Could no longer foster puppies. I see people all the time come in with their new purchased or adopted puppy that comes down with parvo. That already had parvo when they got it, but was still in the incubation period. Makes it past the 'five day guarantee' then gets sick five days later. I cant stress vaccinating new puppies enough, and making sure your pets at home are vaccinated before bringing home the new puppy. Moved into your house less than two years? Make sure your puppy is vaccinated twice before bringing it home....unless you have a thousand dollars for hospitalization and proper treatment saved up- and even then its not a guarantee they will live.

Canine influenza can live on a bag of dog food for two weeks. So, if you purchase your dog food at Pets Mart or anywhere that Pets can go- without proof of health or vaccination, and you bring home that bag of food...you put your own animals at risk every day- unless of course, your dog is vaccinated against K9 Flu. If you went out of state and visited friends or family that had a dog that may or may not be carrying k9 flu, and brought your suitcase and clothes home and unpacked...you could be giving your dog K9 flu.

Its a risk that many many many people take.

I like going to Chickenstock. I love getting new chickens from Chickenstock. I have taken chickens to Chickenstock. Nobody has to take anything from me, or anyone. Four H fairgrounds, animal swaps, etc. Its a risk. Some can take it, some cant. Some choose to, some don't. We do not live in a bubble. Whether I bring home birds or not- wild ducks come in my yard, along with every other kind of bird around here. I will not enclose my birds into plastic bio-bubbles to live. I still believe the production farms that keep hundreds of birds in cramped indoor worlds have sicker animals, more disease and more losses than the average backyard farm. They counter what they can by pumping them full of antibiotics, etc. Their losses are not felt like ours. They lose a hundred- its not really a big deal, is it? Not when they have a thousand.

Raccoon roundworm is something to consider. If you garden, walk barefoot, handle soil. Raccoon roundworm infects humans eyes. Can make you go blind. If you handle dead raccoons, or have raccoons on your property, you are at risk.

Nothing like sitting in a doctors office with your kid who is there for a healthy check-up and the kids in there are hacking and coughing and touching and sliming everything. Your kid comes down sick three weeks later.

The talks of what is the right way what is the wrong way is something that nobody is going to agree on. Its like politics and religion. There are many many ways to be right, to be wrong.
My grandparents, great grandparents, and parents had chickens their whole lives. Nobody did any testing. Their chickens didnt live in a bubble, and they were not pumped full of drugs. Was it right? Maybe not, but it is what worked for them. Thankfully medicine has advanced so much that we know things now that wasnt known then. It gives us a choice of how to raise our own.

Best part of all- we all have a choice to make with everything we do in every area of our lives. And we can all still be friends.

Bravo, also very well said! I agree with you on many of those points. I love my little chickens, and I will be sad if any of them die, either by disease or a predator or some unknown thing or old age. But that's part of having any animals; it's a risk you take, I think. Honestly, we have the same issue with humans but the fact that we live so much longer makes losses less "common" if you will...and also the advances in science being focused on human care make it easier for us to avoid health problems also, overall.

These are all just my opinions and I respect everyone else's opinions as well. This is all I'm gonna say about this topic because it feels depressing to me! Let's get back on some happier subjects,

 

[Opa]

You can constantly worry, never put yourself at risk, do everything possible to stay as healthy as possible, wear a protective mask like you see people in Japan doing, and then one day when crossing the street get ran over by a bus. You can only worry so much and then it starts to interfere with life.

If it were that easy

 

[Mom 2em All]

Today can be chalked up to a wonderful memory-making, humbling experience for me and my family.

I have my grandson. We watched chicks hatch out of eggs. We colored eggs. Then, we tried to color chicks. hahahhahahahaha.
By the way, it doesnt work. Their feathers are dye resistant. But skin isnt. hahaha. So, my hands are pink and purple. I have one semi-pink and one semi-purple chick. I ended up with ten chicks total, and five eggs that quit for some reason before hatching. Brenden and I saved the last chick that was shrink-wrapped in its egg.

Best thing ever. Brenden is 3. He was putting stickers on a yellow egg that was cracked. (most all of them are cracked because that wire egg thing is too hard for a three year old to balance an egg on)...and he said "HELP DRAMMA!! HELP" and I said, "oh, the sticker wont stick,. Here get another sticker." and he started to cry, and said, "Noooo Dramma, its hatching"...

I said, "Nope, no chicks inside these eggs. These are eggs we can eat.: And he didnt believe me, so he peeled it open. and then said, very happily, " Nope. Egg in here." He was so relieved. Then demanded that my husband eat it.

When we were moving the chicks from the incubator to the brooder, I put a chick in his hands and then kept my hands under his and one by one we put them in the brooder. Then we got to the semi-purple chick. Purple is his favorite color. My husband turned on the video camera and I set that chick in his hands, and let him carry it. As soon as his hands were no longer over the table, the toenails of the chick must of pricked his hand. And he yanked his hand away and the chick fell to the floor. I was so mortified and upset. I thought for sure it was splatted and I scooped it up. He ran into the living room to tell my girls, "Dramma is sad, dramma is sad."
I quickly regained composure...humbled..ummm, whatever word..."No sweetie, the chick is okay. Dramma is okay. See? The little chick is okay, Dramma thought it was hurt." The chick is okay, it recovered fine. All of that captured on video. I told him to erase it.

Lesson learned there is no matter how careful a child is being, dont trust that they wont change their mind when holding something so fragile, and drop it.

 

[Olive Hill]

I still believe the production farms that keep hundreds of birds in cramped indoor worlds have sicker animals, more disease and more losses than the average backyard farm. They counter what they can by pumping them full of antibiotics, etc. Their losses are not felt like ours. They lose a hundred- its not really a big deal, is it? Not when they have a thousand.

I won't take issue with anything else you've said. You've made some good points, but I will ask you -- and everyone else -- to stop spreading hyperbole and fear mongering about a group of people and an industry you know nothing about. Enough is enough. If you don't KNOW what you're talking about, don't make statements of fact. Farmers and all their ilk are evil until you (generic you) need help or information and then it's "OLIVE HELP!" or run right to the University Extension sites. Where do you think that information comes from? Industry. Where do you think your education came from, the one that in your case allows you to make a living? Industry. Where do you think the development of those medicines and vaccines come from? Industry. Agriculture Industry.

For the record every one of your assumptions is false. Disease is and has been mostly eradicated from commercial poultry production for years. Chickens are not "pumped full of antibiotics". And losses are felt greatly. A farmer would never sit on a 10% loss of population the way we see many on this thread do.

Farmers feed you. Quit biting the hand.

 

[Mom 2em All]

I still believe the production farms that keep hundreds of birds in cramped indoor worlds have sicker animals, more disease and more losses than the average backyard farm. They counter what they can by pumping them full of antibiotics, etc. Their losses are not felt like ours. They lose a hundred- its not really a big deal, is it? Not when they have a thousand.

I won't take issue with anything else you've said. You've made some good points, but I will ask you -- and everyone else -- to stop spreading hyperbole and fear mongering about a group of people and an industry you know nothing about. Enough is enough. If you don't KNOW what you're talking about, don't make statements of fact. Farmers and all their ilk are evil until you (generic you) need help or information and then it's "OLIVE HELP!" or run right to the University Extension sites. Where do you think that information comes from? Industry. Where do you think your education came from, the one that in your case allows you to make a living? Industry. Where do you think the development of those medicines and vaccines come from? Industry. Agriculture Industry.

For the record every one of your assumptions is false. Disease is and has been mostly eradicated from commercial poultry production for years. Chickens are not "pumped full of antibiotics". And losses are felt greatly. A farmer would never sit on a 10% loss of population the way we see many on this thread do.

Farmers feed you. Quit biting the hand.

Then educate me.

Simply put. I see the reports. I see the 'hidden camera' shows on teevee. The ones where chickens are stuffed into small cramped cages, crapping on one another..dying in cages they cant even turn around . I see the 'organic' or 'free range' videos that shows chickens not caged, but penned so cramped that they walk ontop of the weak and the dead. trampling them...but there...way up there in the corner is a window that sun shines in.

Or the cows. Cant take in a downed cow- so they are hit with two-by-fours, dragged forced to stand and walk in the doors. Or the hog that was frozen to the side of the truck, scraped out with the high-lo...

One only need to google Youtube videos and you are shown horror after horror. Or consumer reports:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/.../chicken-safety-resistance-to-antibiotics.htm

There are reports out there- that the chicken you buy in the store is not safe. Just the other day on teevee. Tested the chicken in the grocery store. Traces of Tylenol, arsenic,. antibiotics...

So, if I am wrong. Educate me. Its easy to tell me to stop feeding the hyperbole. Quite another to show me that I am wrong. And that its just a big a deal to them when their birds are dying and being trampled on by hundreds of other birds as it is when Chicken Grandma puts down her three hens.


For the record- part of my education I was forced to work in THREE research facilities. With the hogs that they test the plastics inside to see whats safe to use in humans, the piglets that are sacrificed so that surgeons may learn how to do open heart surgery with robotics to save human infants. I most definitely are grateful for advances in medicine that have been made by animal sacrifice.
Grateful for the dogs that are given heart disease on purpose so that they may test new drugs to see if they cure it.
Not so much for the lipstick. Or the makeup. Those have already been tested. No need to do it. Use what you have. Human vanity need not be 'bettered' at the sacrifice of animals.

Not so much for the researcher who had no idea how to actually handle the rabbits and when the rabbit kicked out, it broke its back. And the researcher tossed the rabbit back into the cage. " Its fine." He didnt want it euthanized until his study was over. Thankfully, the animal welfare act was on the rabbits side, and it was put down.

 

[b737drvr]

The talks of what is the right way what is the wrong way is something that nobody is going to agree on. Its like politics and religion. There are many many ways to be right, to be wrong.
My grandparents, great grandparents, and parents had chickens their whole lives. Nobody did any testing. Their chickens didnt live in a bubble, and they were not pumped full of drugs. Was it right? Maybe not, but it is what worked for them. Thankfully medicine has advanced so much that we know things now that wasnt known then. It gives us a choice of how to raise our own.

Best part of all- we all have a choice to make with everything we do in every area of our lives. And we can all still be friends.

Quote:

Good words from several frequent posters on here. Definitely thought provoking. I hope I am able to make it to Chickenstock and meet all of you guys (gals). Good luck to you Juise in whatever route you decide to take regarding your new chicks. It is obvious that there are very different opinions on what different ones would do in your situation. Listen to the counsel on here and then make up your mind to do what works best for you and MOVE ON. The tough part is making the decision. I suffer from procrastination in decision making. By taking my time and refusing to decide, my options are eventually limited, and in a way, a decision is usually made for me. Don't be like that. There. I should receive an honorary degree in counseling!

 

[Mom 2em All]

By taking my time and refusing to decide, my options are eventually limited, and in a way, a decision is usually made for me. Don't be like that. There. I should receive an honorary degree in counseling!

Yes you should!

 

[Olive Hill]

Then educate me.

Simply put. I see the reports. I see the 'hidden camera' shows on teevee. The ones where chickens are stuffed into small cramped cages, crapping on one another..dying in cages they cant even turn around . I see the 'organic' or 'free range' videos that shows chickens not caged, but penned so cramped that they walk ontop of the weak and the dead. trampling them...but there...way up there in the corner is a window that sun shines in.

Or the cows. Cant take in a downed cow- so they are hit with two-by-fours, dragged forced to stand and walk in the doors. Or the hog that was frozen to the side of the truck, scraped out with the high-lo...

One only need to google Youtube videos and you are shown horror after horror.

There are reports out there- that the chicken you buy in the store is not safe. Just the other day on teevee. Tested the chicken in the grocery store. Traces of Tylenol, arsenic,. antibiotics...

So, if I am wrong. Educate me. Its easy to tell me to stop feeding the hyperbole. Quite another to show me that I am wrong. And that its just a big a deal to them when their birds are dying and being trampled on by hundreds of other birds as it is when Chicken Grandma puts down her three hens.

Yes, you should believe everything you see on TV and in undercover videos released by PETA and the HSUS.

That's the point, it's not my job to educate you. If you want to talk about something like you know what's going on you should educate yourself first. If you don't want to educate yourself fine, then don't talk about it. I didn't sit around in front of the TV waiting for the next Food, Inc to come along and tell me how to farm. I sought out credible, peer reviewed sources to learn it myself. I invested in continuing education and still do. I took initiative. It's free, anyone can take some for themselves.

Those undercover videos are HIGHLY edited for shock value. I'm not telling you nothing bad ever happens in a livestock operation, I'm not telling you that slaughter is pretty. Bad things happen, slaughter is not pretty -- it's slaughter, of course it's not! What I'm telling you is that what you see on those videos and in those publications with a mission to take down commercial farming as we know it doesn't tell the real story. One of the most recent videos depicted a hog farm. Hog farms are common subjects of videos because they're very convenient for getting shocking footage. They love to overlay black and white videos of pigs in cages with the sound of a pig screaming its head off. What they don't tell you is that a baby pig will squeal bloody murder any time it's restrained. You can pick it up and craddle it like a baby and it's going to throw a FIT. It's a prey animal. Restraint = Death. DUH! They squeal. They love to show uterine prolapses, too. They just don't tell you that what they're advocating against doesn't cause uterine prolapse. But it's bloody and gets peoples emotions running high. They love to show buckets of dead piglets, too. They just don't tell you that dead piglets happen no matter what farm you're raising pigs on. My pigs run on pasture, under the sun, sleep under the stars, get regular belly rubs and behind the ear scratches. I sometimes have dead piglets. Where you have livestock, you have dead stock. Period. Farming is not all rainbows and sunshine, but you all want pork chops so someone has to deal with the unfortunate parts that come along with it.

Those videos of hundreds of dead chickens are not the norm. I'm not telling you that chickens don't die, of course they do. But if you spent even five minutes in the company of some poultry farmers I'm telling you right now what you would hear is them talking about what a disgrace those farmers who have been video'd like that are. You'd hear them talking about what a disgrace it is for someone who's not managing his stock properly to go out and blame it on anything but himself and make the public think that's how it's supposed to be. At a recent conference there was a man who was complaining about being told he couldn't keep chickens in a certain area because the ground was too greasy. You know what all the other farmers said? If your ground is greasy your birds are over-crowded, don't come here and complain about your poor management like it's some government entity's fault. They're just holding you accountable.

Look, I'm fond of intensive rearing either, it's why I do what I do; but I don't go around biting the hand that feeds me and I don't spread lies about the people who are farming that way. Why? Because they're simply doing what is demanded of them by most of the population. If you want change, it's very simple: vote with your grocery dollars. Farmers are running businesses. Processors are running businesses. But if you're going to go to your local big box store and load up your cart with groceries you have no leg to stand on, coming back with your full belly and complaining only makes you a hypocrite. Everything that is done in the production of a food animal is done for a reason, most of those reasons are a direct result of consumer demand. Food Inc and Grist and PeTA and HSUS aren't going to tell you that, because then you wouldn't listen to them anymore. It's horribly inconvenient to be the cause of something you're so fond of kvetching about and the messenger who tells you so isn't going to popular. I'm not concerned with being popular, I'm concerned with the truth.

 

[Olive Hill]

By taking my time and refusing to decide, my options are eventually limited, and in a way, a decision is usually made for me. Don't be like that. There. I should receive an honorary degree in counseling!

Procrastinators Unite.... Tomorrow.

 

[b737drvr]

Raz, Where are you in this discussion? This is good stuff and it just seems like something you would like to get your $0.02 into! Why are you guys on the computer on this beautiful weekend anyway? Isn't the weather nice in MI? I am stuck in a hotel room in Lost Wages, so that is my excuse!