Miniature Horse question, am I wrong to be mad?

[The Wolf Queen]

Im glad you got a healthy foal but I would be mad as hell. Either their irresponcible or they, like you have stated, did it on purpose. I would definetly take them to court. Is there a website we could look at? That way we can eliminate possible sires. Hope this crap gets cleared up.

 

[farmchick897]

Well as mad as I am with these people I don't think I'll list their website on a public forum.

but the mare is black/white, foal is black/white with one blue eye. She has two stallions with blue eyes and one is black/white pinto. Other is chestnut. The other stallions are palomino (no), blue roan (no), leopard appy (no), grey (no). So my guess is the black/white blue eyed stallion. What do you think?

Edit to add: she has a pure black stallion too. Could be him but then where did the blue eye come from..
Oh, black/white stallion is homozygous.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Sounds likely, though I wouldn't assume it was one of her stallions. Mare could have been 'caught' at a show or while boarded at someone else's barn, or a horse that's no longer at the seller's barn. And a lot of times, people aren't as careful with younger ungelded colts and a mare will get caught by one of them.

Years ago, a friend of mine had a very elderly Tennessee Walker mare. She was boarded at a - well - not too organized place. The mare got 'caught', the barn owner knew it but didn't tell the owner. The mare died giving birth. Twins. Vets usually remove one twin as twins often don't both survive - and it can be too much for an old mare too.

In a lot of cases, a buyer or boarder really does NOT want a pregnant mare, and some people just don't have room for a foal - full size horses need full size foaling stalls, barn doors, fencing has to be 'foal safe'....not everyone wants or can afford to raise a foal - it just isn't cheap. The mare may not be sound enough to carry a foal or may have reproductive problems. There can be so many reasons why it's a problem.

But people also buy a mare that's supposed to be in foal, and get surprised that way - no foal.

In general, people tend to get a mare's status checked by a vet if she's advertised as in foal...but usually they don't have the vet check if the mare is supposedly open - they just assume she is. There have been a lot of bad feelings from people buying 'supposedly open' mares, as well as boarder's whose mare gets 'caught' when they don't want that, for various reasons.

 

[StevenW.]

Quote:
X2
Exactly what I was thinking!

 

[babyblue]

I agree with everything wc has said.


I would also be ticked as hell about the baby. I would never ever ever bred a grade horse. If my mare got jumped or some other accident had happened, like a stud got loose and ran miles to our farm or someone lost control of their stud at a show the stallion owner would be paying me to have the pregnancy terminated. I will not bring a baby anything into the world that has a crappy chance at a long healthy productive life. Grade horses, unless the breeder spend years of time and money getting them good and trained are worth nothing here. I would also never risk my healthy purebred expensive mare on a breeding that one would be a grade baby and two I have no idea of the health of the stallion. What if the stud had some sort of health issues passable to the baby? Or would make the baby a carrier like HYPP or OLWS?

congrats on your healthy foal, but oh yes I would be going to court to force the papers or some compensation for the raising and training of a grade horse.

 

[Gmsg01]

Unfortunately, if you intend to pursue this legally, you will have the burden of proof that you have indeed "lost" anything. The mare was purchased in September, which, under most commonly accepted equine reproduction practices, is too "late" in the year to breed. So the assumption would be made that you intended to breed her in the 2011 season. Since that is still very possible, the sellers lawyer could easily argue that you have not "lost" the intended breeding season. Since you purchased a open mare, you never "paid" for the foal, therefore you have not "lost" any money on it's birth. While you are going to have to care for the foal, it might be hard to prove it is going to cost you more for 3-5 months care then you could recoupe selling it as a weanling, even unregistered. The sellers lawyer is going to argue that you are trying to "get something for nothing", by refusing to pay the stallion fee in order to register your foal. Sounds like poor management on their part, but I'm not sure the judge is going to see it in your favor

 

[Kelly G]

It's not about anything she's lost (as far as breeding time)....it's about being saddled with a grade foal that she is now responsible for.

I think you have to be a horseperson to understand that there is no such thing as a "free horse." So this surprise foal is NO GIFT!!! It's a huge responsiblity - to invest in AND with a big chance at not recouping very much of what you've sunk into it. And the foal stands to lose even more.

This is a very difficult time to be a horse. Very.

Responsible breeders (like Welsummer) are not creating foals that have a bleak future. An unregisterable foal has a limited number of homes available to it....and mostly "backyard" type homes....which may - or may not - understand a horses needs.

A breeder/owner will have to work EXTRA hard with a grade foal to make sure it is well trained, well conditioned, and well marketed to make sure it doesn't end up in a miserable backyard condition. Or worse.

This is not Disney. This is real life.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Actually I don't think any legal case would be that complicated.

It would be about if the seller guaranteed the mare open or not. That's about it - that and if the stallion's services were gotten in some way, by the seller in an effort to not pay a costly stud fee. A DNA test might show if the pappy was one of the seller's stallions or not.

A lot of it depends on what the bill of sale actually says (does it say 'open mare' or just 'mare'). And about what due diligence the buyer did to verify that.

It's also a matter of timing. Say the foal was born on day X. The breeding date is X minus 326, give or take.

If you use the range of possible lengths of time a foal is carried, it might not be clear the mare was bred before it left the seller's farm. 'It depends'. It might be very clear. For example, the mare was at the seller's property for two years. You bought it, and in less than 300 days later, it gave birth to a foal.

Verbal agreements are considered to be forms of a contract, and can be binding in court, but there has to be some sort of verification of what was said.

And it's just as possible the new owner could be liable to the seller for stallion fees as that the seller could be liable for reproductive care, birthing care, foal vaccinations, foal board to weaning age, marketing costs to sell the weanling, further board and care if it does not sell, with the sale price of the foal going to the stallion owner. Cases have gone both ways depending on the circumstances, the state, and other issues.

You never know til all the facts are gone over by a lawyer. Livestock sale laws, are, in general, not geared toward horses as show animals, companion animals or pets, but treat them basically as livestock, like cattle.

 

[verthandi]

Quote:
I don't mean to add another kink to your situation, but here are the odds that your mare with any of these stallions could produce a black and white foal. If she is homozygous for the pinto gene she has a 100% chance for a spotted foal of any color. If she is heterozygous 50% of the time it is likely to be spotted. Crossing Black to Black, 56% of the foals will be black, Black to Chestnut 19%, Black to Palomino 9%, Black to Blue Roan 28% black, Black to unidentified base coat leopard ?, Black to Grey, it would depend on what color the stallion was at birth. The blue eye can show up due to the pinto gene in your mare, or when they have white around or near the eye.

 

[Gmsg01]

Quote:
Never said the foal was a "gift", merely stated that a judge is not necessarily going to be sensitive to this owners desire to provide this horse a great future, the judge may consider this foal a commodity that can be sold at auction in 3-5 months for "x" dollars.

Perhaps my 25 years experience raising, loving, training and competing horses qualifies me for the title "horse person", but then again, since my horses DO live in my backyard, perhaps not.