MJ's little flock

[RoyalChick]

It's not just Australia that is miles ahead in poultry care, many other countries including the UK have made major progress in chicken knowledge, particularly regarding behaviour studies and welfare. Other creature welfare has never been big in the USA. It's got a lot to do with culture rather than the means to do the research in my opinion.

I was including access to veterinary care for chickens in my thinking, and so while both UK and EU have a welfare research base, I have yet to hear anyone with access to the resources that MJ has found in not just one, but two vet surgeries.

 

[RoyalChick]

Thing is, I'm not convinced I can buy chicks that have been properly vaccinated. The vaccine has to be kept in liquid nitrogen for viability and it comes in batches of 1000 doses. I can't see chick hatching people doing it right, even if they say they are.

So another Q for Dr Jing on Tuesday morning is whether she can vaccinate chicks for me. That practice has impressive equipment. I could take chicks from farmer to vet, then isolate them at home until they're safe to join the flock.

Chicks outside of the broiler industry are vaccinated with a different vaccine that is easier to handle.
It requires use within a few hours once mixed, but prior to that it needs only to be kept cool. It comes in 1,000 doses, but is not out of the range in cost for even individuals to purchase it.
I doubt I will, but one option I have seriously considered is vaccinating chicks hatched at home myself (with help).
The vaccine is often referred to as HVT in scientific papers which stands for Herpesvirus of turkeys. The data on its efficacy is very good and the broiler hatcheries (who often use in ovo vaccination technology) have started using HVT as well as the one that needs liquid nitrogen (RISPENS) to overcome shortfalls in the RISPENS vaccine.
To my surprise even the at scale commercial hatcheries in the US that ship chicks in the mail use HVT and vaccinate by hand. It really is only the broiler hatcheries who deal in millions of chicks who use the vaccine based on the actual Marek’s disease virus.

Edited to add a link to the Poultry Hub of Australia on the history of the vaccine in Australia. What it doesn’t say is whether HVT is still used and available to purchase in Australia.
https://www.poultryhub.org/all-about-poultry/health-management/disease/mareks-disease

And edited to add link to the product available for use by backyard chicken folk in the US. Not sure if similar available to people in Australia.
https://meyerhatchery.com/products/mareks-hvt-disease-vaccination-kit

 

[MaryJanet]

I was including access to veterinary care for chickens in my thinking, and so while both UK and EU have a welfare research base, I have yet to hear anyone with access to the resources that MJ has found in not just one, but two vet surgeries.

i appreciate how lucky I am.

There's a third surgery too, which I used for Edie's second opinion. It was that vet's student who found a louse on her.

 

[MaryJanet]

Chicks outside of the broiler industry are vaccinated with a different vaccine that is easier to handle.
It requires use within a few hours once mixed, but prior to that it needs only to be kept cool. It comes in 1,000 doses, but is not out of the range in cost for even individuals to purchase it.
I doubt I will, but one option I have seriously considered is vaccinating chicks hatched at home myself (with help).
The vaccine is often referred to as HVT in scientific papers which stands for Herpesvirus of turkeys. The data on its efficacy is very good and the broiler hatcheries (who often use in ovo vaccination technology) have started using HVT as well as the one that needs liquid nitrogen (RISPENS) to overcome shortfalls in the RISPENS vaccine.
To my surprise even the at scale commercial hatcheries in the US that ship chicks in the mail use HVT and vaccinate by hand. It really is only the broiler hatcheries who deal in millions of chicks who use the vaccine based on the actual Marek’s disease virus.

Edited to add a link to the Poultry Hub of Australia on the history of the vaccine in Australia. What it doesn’t say is whether HVT is still used and available to purchase in Australia.
https://www.poultryhub.org/all-about-poultry/health-management/disease/mareks-disease

And edited to add link to the product available for use by backyard chicken folk in the US. Not sure if similar available to people in Australia.
https://meyerhatchery.com/products/mareks-hvt-disease-vaccination-kit

Thank you - I hadn't read that bit yet.

I've also found someone selling pullet chicks from the laying industry. Leghorn x New Hampshire. They're more likely to be plagued with reproductive disorders (an egg a day for 3 years is stated in the advert, as if that's a good thing ) but they are properly vaccinated according to laying industry procedures.

 

[RoyalChick]

Thank you - I hadn't read that bit yet.

I've also found someone selling pullet chicks from the laying industry. Leghorn x New Hampshire. They're more likely to be plagued with reproductive disorders (an egg a day for 3 years is stated in the advert, as if that's a good thing ) but they are properly vaccinated according to laying industry procedures.

As you can tell, I have been deep down this rabbit hole ever since I got the definitive Marek’s diagnosis from Eli’s necropsy.
I don’t believe vaccinating properly is that hard - so not sure you need to go with commercial breeds to be confident of vaccination.
The big unknown to me, and by far the biggest swing factor I think, is what % of exposed chickens actually get the disease. If, as some assert, there is essentially 100% exposure because it is everywhere, then obviously a good number of unvaccinated chickens do just fine. In which case I would still vaccinate, but maybe I would feel less doomed. If however only a few flocks are exposed and the morbidity and mortality is very high, then paranoia is clearly rational.
It is the latter situation I am assuming is true. But I have found no reliable data on the topic.

 

[MaryJanet]

As you can tell, I have been deep down this rabbit hole ever since I got the definitive Marek’s diagnosis from Eli’s necropsy.
I don’t believe vaccinating properly is that hard - so not sure you need to go with commercial breeds to be confident of vaccination.
The big unknown to me, and by far the biggest swing factor I think, is what % of exposed chickens actually get the disease. If, as some assert, there is essentially 100% exposure because it is everywhere, then obviously a good number of unvaccinated chickens do just fine. In which case I would still vaccinate, but maybe I would feel less doomed. If however only a few flocks are exposed and the morbidity and mortality is very high, then paranoia is clearly rational.
It is the latter situation I am assuming is true. But I have found no reliable data on the topic.

Well, Dr Mark said it was endemic and spread by wildbirds, but I'll see what Dr Jing says and report back.

That said, things that are true in Australia might not hold elsewhere because we're so isolated.

 

[MaryJanet]

I don’t believe vaccinating properly is that hard - so not sure you need to go with commercial breeds to be confident of vaccination.

The thing is, I've not had much luck with people who make claims about the chickens they sell and I'd rather not trust a random person claiming to sell vaccinated chicks without seeking confirmation.

 

[Mother of Chaos]

The thing is, I've not had much luck with people who make claims about the chickens they sell and I'd rather not trust a random person claiming to sell vaccinated chicks without seeking confirmation.

I didn't realize how fortunate I was when I bought the pullets from a local breeder (she raises other breeds, but she buys eggs to raise and sell.) She's gone to the trouble and expense to be NPIP-certified (and state-certified AI-free), and I saw her biosecurity when we picked up the birds. People are gonna people, I suppose, but I find it a little more difficult to doubt the word of someone who has done all this who says that she vaccinates all chicks (and doesn't use medicated chick feed.)

Since then I've read so many posts by people who were sold the wrong thing either out of ignorance or deliberately. I'm sorry that you've been burned as well.

 

[MaryJanet]

I didn't realize how fortunate I was when I bought the pullets from a local breeder (she raises other breeds, but she buys eggs to raise and sell.) She's gone to the trouble and expense to be NPIP-certified (and state-certified AI-free), and I saw her biosecurity when we picked up the birds. People are gonna people, I suppose, but I find it a little more difficult to doubt the word of someone who has done all this who says that she vaccinates all chicks (and doesn't use medicated chick feed.)

Since then I've read so many posts by people who were sold the wrong thing either out of ignorance or deliberately. I'm sorry that you've been burned as well.

The other point in this discussion is whether Australians have access to the easier vaccine at all. Most of what I've read in Australia indicates we have the Rispens vaccine, including the link RC shared,* and that's the one that requires liquid nitrogen cooling. No doubt things have changed in 20 years, but how? I'll confirm when I talk to Dr Jing on Tuesday morning.

If backyard breeders are using the Rispens vaccine, the risk of them failing to handle it correctly is too great for me to buy their chicks.

*It states, "As of 2004, trivalent vaccines were available in the USA, recommended only for high risk flocks, but were not available in Australia."

 

[Mother of Chaos]

The other point in this discussion is whether Australians have access to the easier vaccine at all. Most of what I've read in Australia indicates we have the Rispens vaccine, including the link RC shared,* and that's the one that requires liquid nitrogen cooling. No doubt things have changed in 20 years, but how? I'll confirm when I talk to Dr Jing on Tuesday morning.

If backyard breeders are using the Rispens vaccine, the risk of them failing to handle it correctly is too great for me to buy their chicks.

*It states, "As of 2004, trivalent vaccines were available in the USA, recommended only for high risk flocks, but were not available in Australia."

It’s amazing how difficult it is to be a backyard/ small-flock breeder. Research tilts STRONGLY toward Big Ag.