MJ's little flock

[Shadrach]

There's always someone who'd rather snooze than engage in active learning

The camera was in selfie-mode - they were looking at themselves.

Also, you can see the black chick's leg fuzz!

Have you checked the sleepy chick for pasty butt?

 

[MaryJanet]

Have you checked the sleepy chick for pasty butt?

I've been checking them all for it a few times daily. I bought their food from the person who hatched them so there'd be no change in diet. The only other thing they ate were those few grains of sand. So far there are no signs of pasty butt or anything else.

That particular chick is as energetic as its sisters. I think it just had a sleepy moment under the heat plate.

 

[MaryJanet]

If anyone has advice on keeping chicks healthy through a heat wave, I'm all ears!

Things I'm already doing,

A fan
Regular water changes
Regular brooder clean outs

What do you think of providing a tightly closed jam jar full of ice? Too much? It might create a cool corner?

Also, I'm just following up Shadrach's earlier post to say I saw that chick poop normally. And two others. I saw the fourth one poop normally this morning. I haven't observed any signs of pasty butt or any other sickness, but that's not something I'm taking for granted - I'll keep going with all the usual checks.

 

[RoyalChick]

I know that's widely practiced but we know for sure the environment has Marek's. We also know their vax would still need 2 more weeks before being fully prophylactic.

So I'll hold off on exposure until after the vax is robust.

Hi MJ. The chicks are adorable.
Sorry for not responding earlier - I have been taking some quiet reflection time to absorb my learnings from having Mr. Chips in the flock, and my feelings from his death. I am writing something to cover both of those, so maybe more on that later.

Meanwhile, I had to weigh in on the Marek's vaccine question.
I assume a vet is your source for the time for a Marek's vaccine to take? Ask them for their scientific back-up to that.

I have dug pretty deep into the research on this topic and there are no studies that support benefit beyond 10 days for it to take, and the most thorough work (funded by the Australian Research Council coincidentally) finds no increase in benefit past 7 days.

Attached is a link to the best paper along with the summary I made for myself when deciding about giving chicks to broody Tassels. This team have done most of the rigorous research work on the topic and have many papers, but this one had the most data for what I was trying to decide.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10....d:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub 0pubmed#d1e390

My notes:

Getting chicks for Tassels
Plan to get vaccinated chicks and give them to Tassels and hope she adopts them.
Marek’s vaccines come in two flavors:
- Rispens. Live Marek’s virus serotype 1. Available only to large hatcheries, can be given either in ovo or on day 1 of hatch. Considered the most e􀆯ective vaccine available (
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7677647/#:~:text=Both serotype 1 vaccine vir
uses,when%20compared%20with%20other%20vaccines).
- Turkey Herpes virus. Live Turkey virus. Given on day of hatch, and chicks must be quarantined until the chick develops its own antibodies. Used by small breeders. Considered less e􀆯ective
than Rispens because of increasing virulence of Marek’s disease virus, but practically the only option open to me.


How long do I have to wait for the THV vaccination to take?

Source 1: PennState Extension (reputable source) say 4-7 days but does not give a source.
https://extension.psu.edu/mareks-disease-in-chickens

Source 2: Australian study on vaccine to challenge interval (VCI) impact on survival of chickens
vaccinated with THV on day of hatch.
 Simplifying the stats: about 74% of unvaccinated chicks will get Marek’s; that can be reduced to about 16% in vaccinated chicks if there is a 7-day interval between vaccination and exposure. The protective index of the vaccine is correlated to the VCI (though statistically a 4-day VCI was no better than a 2-day VCI which was close in mortality to being unvaccinated).
 A surprise finding is that vaccination and exposure on day 0 is as e􀆯ective as a VCI of 7 days probably the result of maternal antibodies that have decayed by day 2, and opens up the
possibility of giving Tassels hatching eggs, but I would have to vaccinate each chick as soon as it hatches.
 Abstract: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18568648/ Full Text:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10.1080/03079450701802230?url_ver=Z39.88-
2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200pubmed#d1e390

The Australian study supports the PennState 4-7 days, with 7 being the safest from a Marek’s point of view. This needs to be balanced against the probability of Tassels accepting an older chick. Would
she be more likely to accept a 4-day chick than a 7-day chick?

 

[LozzyR]

Your chicks are adorable MJ.

 

[MaryJanet]

Hi MJ. The chicks are adorable.
Sorry for not responding earlier - I have been taking some quiet reflection time to absorb my learnings from having Mr. Chips in the flock, and my feelings from his death. I am writing something to cover both of those, so maybe more on that later.

Meanwhile, I had to weigh in on the Marek's vaccine question.
I assume a vet is your source for the time for a Marek's vaccine to take? Ask them for their scientific back-up to that.

I have dug pretty deep into the research on this topic and there are no studies that support benefit beyond 10 days for it to take, and the most thorough work (funded by the Australian Research Council coincidentally) finds no increase in benefit past 7 days.

Attached is a link to the best paper along with the summary I made for myself when deciding about giving chicks to broody Tassels. This team have done most of the rigorous research work on the topic and have many papers, but this one had the most data for what I was trying to decide.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10.1080/03079450701802230?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub 0pubmed#d1e390

My notes:

Getting chicks for Tassels
Plan to get vaccinated chicks and give them to Tassels and hope she adopts them.
Marek’s vaccines come in two flavors:
- Rispens. Live Marek’s virus serotype 1. Available only to large hatcheries, can be given either in ovo or on day 1 of hatch. Considered the most e􀆯ective vaccine available (
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7677647/#:~:text=Both serotype 1 vaccine vir
uses,when%20compared%20with%20other%20vaccines).
- Turkey Herpes virus. Live Turkey virus. Given on day of hatch, and chicks must be quarantined until the chick develops its own antibodies. Used by small breeders. Considered less e􀆯ective
than Rispens because of increasing virulence of Marek’s disease virus, but practically the only option open to me.


How long do I have to wait for the THV vaccination to take?

Source 1: PennState Extension (reputable source) say 4-7 days but does not give a source.
https://extension.psu.edu/mareks-disease-in-chickens

Source 2: Australian study on vaccine to challenge interval (VCI) impact on survival of chickens
vaccinated with THV on day of hatch.
 Simplifying the stats: about 74% of unvaccinated chicks will get Marek’s; that can be reduced to about 16% in vaccinated chicks if there is a 7-day interval between vaccination and exposure. The protective index of the vaccine is correlated to the VCI (though statistically a 4-day VCI was no better than a 2-day VCI which was close in mortality to being unvaccinated).
 A surprise finding is that vaccination and exposure on day 0 is as e􀆯ective as a VCI of 7 days probably the result of maternal antibodies that have decayed by day 2, and opens up the
possibility of giving Tassels hatching eggs, but I would have to vaccinate each chick as soon as it hatches.
 Abstract: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18568648/ Full Text:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10.1080/03079450701802230?url_ver=Z39.88-
2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200pubmed#d1e390

The Australian study supports the PennState 4-7 days, with 7 being the safest from a Marek’s point of view. This needs to be balanced against the probability of Tassels accepting an older chick. Would
she be more likely to accept a 4-day chick than a 7-day chick?

Thanks RC. It's good to hear from you. Fox attacks are vicious and traumatising. Looking forward to reading your words on that topic in due course.

I recalled your earlier advice of waiting a week, and I've read a few papers on the Marek's vaccinations too. I didn't do a full PRISMA review of the topic, I only read until satisfied I understood.

That was a year ago and things may have changed in the interim. The breeder who did the vaccinations (coccidiosis and Marek's) advised a three week quarantine. They take biosecurity very seriously and the older hens they sell have a full set of vaccinations. I don't know which of the Marek's vaccines they used on the chicks. As there's no plan to transfer the chicks to hens, I'm ok with the 3 week quarantine. These breeders don't have great English and they're a little resistant to answering questions, but they're the only breeders I've found who do such a thorough job of biosecurity.

In the meanwhile, what I really need is advice on keeping the little ones healthy in a heat wave. What would be your advice on that?

 

[RoyalChick]

Not sure I can help much as your heat is beyond what i experience here. My guess is they will be quite resilient as long as they have shade and plenty to drink. Giving them some nice damp ground to sprawl out on will probably be appreciated too.
Do you still have a misting system?

Oh, and here is what I wrote.
Article 'Goodbye Mr. Chips'
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/goodbye-mr-chips.80391/

 

[MaryJanet]

Not sure I can help much as your heat is beyond what i experience here. My guess is they will be quite resilient as long as they have shade and plenty to drink. Giving them some nice damp ground to sprawl out on will probably be appreciated too.
Do you still have a misting system?

Oh, and here is what I wrote.
Article 'Goodbye Mr. Chips'
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/goodbye-mr-chips.80391/

It's a very touching story, thoughtfully told.

 

[RoyalChick]

It's a very touching story, thoughtfully told.

Thank you MJ. High praise!

 

[LozzyR]

Thank you MJ. High praise!

Credit where credit is due.