MM Sick Chicks Official Diagnosis In...

[zchickens]

I found another source for information on AE on the web from Lohmann Animal health international; for what it is worth (PDF File):

http://www.lahinternational.com/pdf/General/AE_LAHI.pdf

One interesting thing of note, is that it states that "once the clinical signs are over, the disease will not reoccur in the same flock".

Z

 

[fleenorfarmmom]

Thanks, zchickens, for that article. It explains things very well, almost in english. I'll have to reread it in the morning when my two brain cells aren't so tired, but it makes info understandable. I still have a question or two.

 

[adoptedbyachicken]

OK, this will be about the only time you hear me say this.... I wish I was at work. Only because I have a pile of links on AE that I found on a boring nightshift on the computer there.

Here is one I re-found, which says in part

Susceptible chickens more than 5 weeks old will develop antibodies to AE

and

Some birds recover, and others may survive with persistent clinical signs.

There was a large research paper I found before that said the immature immune system of the young chick was the reason for the non-recovery.

Just to show you what I mean about conflicting opinions look at this part

There is no treatment for acute outbreaks. Control is through prevention. Affected birds should be removed, killed and incinerated. Recovered chicks are unthrifty. Prove good nursing during outbreaks will help with mortality.

How is that? Cull them, but give good nursing care to reduce mortality?

I'll try and refind all the good links and put a post up of just links for everyone effected. Again, sorry this is happening to you, my heart is with you.​

 

[adoptedbyachicken]

zchickens that is a great link. Here is one interesting thing I had not picked up before

Give the vaccine at least four weeks prior to onset of egg production. Both vaccine and field virus can cause depressed egg production and can be vertically transmitted.

So this could be not just a vaccine failure, but a dose given too close to or in lay.

Again this says chicks less than 4 weeks do not develop immunity, and maternal immunity only lasts 5 or so weeks, yet those chicks exposed can still be shedding, so if you have chicks that did not get sick at 1 to 2 weeks they might after 5 weeks. I hope some of the papers help us figure out for how long those that want to try and keep unaffected chicks will have to have them isolated then.

Obviously vaccinating hens that are already in lay is not the right answer, nor is just hatching your own eggs if you already have this on the property.​

 

[EweSheep]

Thanks for letting us know...I've been really watching this thread. So sorry for all of you folks in losing chicks by AE.

I hope MM will be able to find the source and correct the problems many of the BYCers have on their chicks.

I am surprised some states say AE is a reportable disease...I dont know about my state.

My Feb 25th order of MM chicks are all thriving well so far, no signs of any diseases so far. I must be lucky here.

 

[gritsar]

Quote:
Just a thought. TSC, like your local feedstore, has to get their chicks from somewhere and it might well be McMurray that they get them from. You'd need to find out from TSC where they get their chicks from.

 

[MNKris]

Quote:
That comment is just spreading fear. Our vet said nothing of the sort, and in fact, said birds that are exposed to this and are "normal" and healthy are potentially good breeders because of the natural immunity. I asked if I should vaccinate my non-MM chicks and he said he did not see a reason to vaccinate everything. This virus is primarily passed hen to egg and through the hatcher.

Sadly other that have had positive test results today were told just that, all chicks must be culled and all hens that got sick with this will pass it on through the egg. Some of the reading I have done supports this, some supports what your vet has said. Really then the truth just may be that we don't know for sure.

This is the frustrating thing with disease, you get many conflicting facts and opinions. When I was in the middle of the AI outbreak not two vets or 'experts' on the subject came to the same conclusion. Sorry, but in this case, as with AI I would strongly go with the most conservative idea and I would cull all the chicks. Hopefully your adult flocks have not been exposed.

Don't say that there will not be disease spread based on one vet's opinions, you would hate for that to turn out to be wrong.

I am basing it on three vet opinions, all from the VDL. MN is known to be one of the leaders in veterinary medicine in the country. I trust them. MM actually told me the same thing.

I think the reports that your are reading, are purely from an economic standpoint. When outbreaks like this happen in large commercial operations, culling may indeed be the way to go due to egg loss, and future unthriftiness. I read all those definitions on the internet too, and I guess I interpreted it to mean cull any that show symptoms. If a chick doesn't show symptoms, how do you know it has it? It an adult bird doesn't show symptoms, how do you know an adult was exposed?

I think this thing is kind of like chicken pox used to be in people. Before the vaccine was introduced, once you had it, you were supposed to be immune and not get chicken pox again, but when you had the rash, you were contagious. You didn't get them again because your body carries the right antibodies to fight off the virus. And you don't spread chicken pox now because you don't have an active outbreak. Then, there are people like me that were around long before any vaccine and have never had chicken pox in my ripe old age of 29

. Some researchers say I have a natural immunity because my mother never had chicken pox and neither did any of my siblings but my father did and we were definitely exposed to it through cousins, classmates, etc.

Anyway, here most of us are talking about a small scale, backyard flock. Although I am not in the medical field, my brother is a highly educated research engineer in the medical field and I asked him about this disease. He agreed with our vet's conclusions as well. He said the birds that were introduced to the disease but proved resistent are the ones that you would want to keep in your flock. He also told me I should destroy any that did not make a quick recovery. Now, I haven't done that, exactly. I have a few that I am babying, and probably shouldn't be.

I guess cull if you want to, or think you have to do it. A lot of people that are a heck of a lot smarter than I am recommended that I shouldn't, so I guess I am going to go with that for now. They have been right about everything else so far...

 

[GwenFarms]

Quote:
Just a thought. TSC, like your local feedstore, has to get their chicks from somewhere and it might well be McMurray that they get them from. You'd need to find out from TSC where they get their chicks from.

I don't know if all TSCs use the same hatchery, but our's use Ideal

 

[kstaven]

I did speak with a researcher over at Guelph today that deals specifically with poultry, and from what I was told:

Cull those that are obviously showing extreme signs.

Chicks that recover from milder symptoms may very well die later due to damage done by the virus.

Chicks that are unaffected will carry antibodies to AE. But here is the catch. If they become extremely ill or immune suppressed later in life there is the potential for this to rear its head. If you sell hatching eggs or chickens to another breeder down the road that has a flock that does not carry antibodies there is a potential risk to their chicks. His PERSONAL opinion is that the risk is low but does exist.

It is far from a black and white statement, but I hope it helps some decide how to handle the issue.

 

[MNKris]

Quote:
Very good points. I had read points one and two also. I hadn't read point three, but I suppose it is possible. However, I guess if I were selling eggs, which I do from time to time, I wouldn't sell them from sick hens. Meaning, if they were extremely ill, I wouldn't dare sell the eggs from them so there should be even less of a chance for that to occur. Now, if you are selling live birds to someone, it would be irresponsible to not let them know that they could have been exposed to AE and future thriftiness might be affected.

But, and this is the biggest but, most hatchery birds ARE ALREADY exposed to the virus and or vaccine. Every chicken that is purchased through MM is supposedly vaccinated by progeny (it's mother and father were vaccinated and passed immunity). There was a break in the system this time, but that is why outbreaks are very rare. Most chickens are naturally immune. Vaccinating for AE is part of biosecurity. So, if you ever buy a chick from MM or most of the other major hatcheries, you already have AE protection on your property and you didn't even know it.