My Beloved Roo Is Becoming A Problem...despite all attempts to turn him around.

[carrieb62]

Empathy is very different from what you are saying. This link has no bearing on what we were discussing. Here's what I was taking issue with:
Yes, chickens feel fear. All animals can feel fear. Fear is not a human-only emotion, and neither is aggression (I'd argue that aggression isn't an emotion, by the way). But you told the op that her rooster was scared and angry at him for taking away his alpha role, and started feeling that the OP was a threat because of that. That's higher-level thinking that a chicken simply doesn't do. I apologize for using the wrong quote in my response above.

My friend donrae has said on here "when you hear hoof beats, think horse, not zebra." What makes more sense, that a rooster with underlying aggressive tendencies has started to display them, or that a rooster suddenly was able to think through a long series of events, make inferences, and assign blame?

I also stand by my statement that aggressive roosters attack, scared roosters run. A scared and aggressive rooster might attack you when he can't run, as seems like happened to you--but without that underlying aggression, he'd just go limp and wait for you to kill him. (I'm not saying that you're going to kill him, I'm saying that's probably what he expects). I do not believe that your rooster, that you said had never known human touch, knew his name well enough that he heard you call his name and knew you were after him, while all the other chickens knew you were going after the rooster (after all, you'd called his name, not theirs) and kept on eating. Clifford sounds like he was showing normal rooster behavior, looking around for the source of the strange noise.

Empathy is not different! Empathy relates to emotions and the ability to recognize them! I am deeply offended by your words of invalidation regarding my experiences. I was trying to share my personal opinion & feelings with OP - I'm very sorry you find my feelings of optimism & hopefulness a little difficult for you to digest! As far as Clifford is concerned, need I remind you I was at a friends house, I was not alone - there were witnesses to this event who felt the same way! BTW - zebra is an equid! HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!

 

[ChickenLegs13]

All hackles were raised as he aimed for my eyes, I jerked my head back and got nailed on the chin instead. It wasn't a peck either - he clamped down hard on the skin, the mark was 1/2 inch long.

OUCH!! When I was a kid I looked thru a pophole and a rooster on the other side bit the skin off the end of my nose.
Clifford felt threatened and went into agressive defense mode because you were in his face and he saw your eyes, glasses and mouth as a huge predator about to make him dinner and he had no other avenues of retreat. Am I reading the situation correctly?
Based on that I wouldn't label Cliff an agressive attack rooster deserving of the axe, unlike the op's rooster who repeatedly takes the initiative to mount an unprovoked aggressive offense, just because he can.

 

[guernsi]

Thank you all for your input regarding my rooster problem. I had no idea I would get such a diversity of responses, and all of your opinions have been helpful. Since I can't respond to you all individually - here's what's been happening the last week:

I decided to stop the picking up and embarrassing technique that has not been working. I started by clothing myself in long pants, sleeves, gloves, and boots so I wouldn't have to fear his biting and and spurs. I took the broom out with me as an extension of my arms so that he could no get as close to me. Don't misunderstand, this broom is not for bopping him across the yard, unless of course he continues the direct attacks. I have faced him both inside the run and out free ranging, and I go to where he is and force him to get out of my way. I use forward body language, am quick and direct, and don't tolerate him not moving away from me. I use the broom to touch his bottom if he doesn't move, which he does not like. And so far, it has changed his behavior toward me significantly. He doesn't want to be near me, and I make it clear when I don't want him around the hens. We've had a couple sessions of chasing around the yard, until I feel satisfied that he acknowledges me as boss, then I let him be. I went in the run a few days ago (where I have to stoop a bit to refill food and water, and being closer to him makes me nervous), and I had to bop him with the container of food, but he backed off and stayed in the corner while I went about the chores. The only aggression he has displayed is when we are on opposite sides of the wire fencing, and this I am not tolerating either. He has mock-charged the fence a few times, but not every time like he used to.

I think we are making progress ! And this time, I'm not just defending myself (the first technique i tried at his first aggressive tendencies) which seemed to make him act more aggressive (like he expected me to hurt him all the time). I am taking the lead role in initiating his movement away from me every time, and being alpha.

Unfortunately, he does have aggressive tendencies, but I did not know how to properly deal with him and have been learning as I go. I hope he is salvageable but agree with those of you who will not tolerate an aggressive animal. I have more patience than most, and a pretty big heart, but this is his last chance to behave. So far, he gets to stay... and training is going in the right direction. I'll let you know more as time goes on !

p.s. Thank you Azygous, I'll have to check out your suggestion.

 

[donrae]

Guernsi--

Now, go to your husband. Say "Honey, I love you very much. I'm leaving the house for x hours. When I get home can the rooster not be here anymore?" and let him take care of it. A few months later, pull the chicken from the freezer and have chicken for dinner.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

Guernsi--

Now, go to your husband. Say "Honey, I love you very much. I'm leaving the house for x hours. When I get home can the rooster not be here anymore?" and let him take care of it. A few months later, pull the chicken from the freezer and have chicken for dinner.

I agree wholeheartedly.

If you do, for whatever reason, decide to keep him, please don't breed from him. He will pass the aggression to his offspring.

 

[guernsi]

I may yet have that conversation with my husband... but I have to give it my best shot first. And I have no plans to put his genes back in to the gene pool. I would love to have a calm well mannered rooster someday, then maybe I'll breed the nice one ! I have a hard time even imagining a well mannered rooster, but they do exist right?

I am surprised that my black australorp doesn't have the nice genes that the breed is known for. My australorp hen is not the nicest creature either... they were from the same hatch.

 

[azygous]

The fact that Australorpes tend toward docility is in your favor for a positive outcome after a dedicated attempt at rehabilitation. My Buff Brahma Penrod was in this category. Brahmas are usually pretty mellow, yet Penrod was high strung. When I would forget and make sudden movements near him, I would suffer a drilling of my flesh that was as precise as a power drill.

With Ky's help and constant reassurance, even though it took a year, Penrod was transformed into a dependably well-mannered rooster. Sadly, he broke his leg hopping off his perch and is no more. But I have his baby son Izzy, who is also high strung like his daddy was. I'm working with this four-month old to try to calm his anti-social tendencies. In another two months, as his hormones surge, I know I'll be faced with a real challenge. If he's going to be a biter like his daddy, this is when I will need to be extremely wary.

Have you read Ky's blog yet? It's very helpful in understanding why a rooster behaves the way he does. Ky is homeless. He has the unique distinction of also being homeless with a flock of roosters. Yes, all roosters! They are all rescues. He runs a rooster rescue shelter. By necessity, they must be trained to be quiet and well behaved since he lives shoulder to shoulder with other people. He has a long series of youtube video clips that show how to handle chickens and maintain them and treat special problems. He's truly a marvel and a wonderful resource. Give him a try.

 

[chynasparks]

There's some good information on these postings, even with the disagreements. I'm reading all I can to prepare myself for what might become of my rooster. I've posted before saying he was supposed to be a she. Now I'm trying to learn how to care for and treat my man bird. I'm hoping he is not from aggressive stock. He does get real flighty when I round them up to go on the whoop run. He's 21 weeks and has never shown aggression to me. I don't plan on raising chickens so of he is aggressive by his nature, it won't be passed on. Anyway, thanks for this spirited discussion, it's helped.

 

[guernsi]

To the debate regarding chicken emotion, and for all of you who have concerns about your young roo becoming aggressive:

I think you guys have brought up a very interesting discussion that relates to my original post. Here are my two cents, as this conversation has sparked some new thoughts for me on the issue... Chickens are simply not capable of complex thoughts, I agree. I wish they were at times, but really they are driven by instinct as all animals are to some degree. Since chickens are not capable of complex thought, I think they are largely driven by instinct alone. This is the reason a chick can stand on it's own two legs, run around, eat, and drink shortly after hatching. Chicks are precocial, which is a biological trait with roots in evolution. We cannot change this fact. This extends to a chicken's behavior as it ages into an adult as well. This means that no matter how hard we try, there are just some tendencies these animals have that we humans cannot change. This is not to say that some behaviors cannot be modified by realizing the basis of a behavior, then making a fundamental change in the environment or our own behavior that will modify the chicken's behavior.

You can't change where a chicken poops, (which is simply a biological process, not so much a behavior like it can be with dogs and cats) but you can install roosts where you want to majority of the poop to go; you can't stop a chicken from eating it's eggs (which is a learned behavior), but you can modify the behavior by adding rocks to the nest so that the outcome is not nearly so satisfying when the "egg" (rock) is pecked, thus diminishing the behavior; you cannot keep a chicken from roaming where it wants to without a physical barrier (instinct), but you can call them with a food reward so they don't stray too far (modified instinct).

Now thinking about my rooster in these terms finally makes sense. Suppose he simply is acting aggressive because he has plenty of testosterone and following his instincts. He is boss, he deals with threats by attacking, and is following his instincts. I made that really easy for him by picking him up, petting him, and feeding him. Clearly, he was still number one. I also became wary of him, walked around him, and kicked at him in self defense. Which is what a lesser rooster would do. I really did put in a good faith effort to consistently pick him up at every single attack, wave him around in the air (to embarrass him), and set him down. Now, he wasn't too fond of the waving around in the air part, but it clearly didn't earn his respect because after what appeared initially to be progress (he would walk away rather than attack), he decided he would rather whip around and attack me again when I set him down. [A side note about embarrassing a rooster. I agree with one of the previous posts, embarrassing a critter who mates, poops, and dust bathes on the front lawn doesn't seem likely. To break it down to it's most basic components, embarrassment requires one to act in a manner that is socially unacceptable, a concept that is beyond the capacity of chickens. Yes, they form a social construct (pecking order), but to say they are able to "judge" each other and determine behaviors which are socially acceptable or not, is a far cry.] Now, I am modifying his behavior by inserting myself into the social construct as dominant rooster. My behavior - chasing away my australorp rooster, not allowing him to eat when I feed the ladies, walking in his path and forcing him to move away, not allowing him to mount the ladies when I am present, and scruffling the hens backs (mating them in front of him). All of these things simply play into his instinct regarding how to treat a dominant rooster. I have not had to use any physically harmful means to get him to comply. Today I went in the run to feed, and he walked calmly to the back of the run and waited while I fed the gals. This is a HUGE change from the last several months, when he would fling himself at the bars as I approached the run.

Since this post has clearly not been long enough - one more thought. I don't think that a relationship with a rooster or any animal amounts to pure trust on either side. Sure, your dog blindly trusts you even when he thinks something is not a good idea, but rarely, or occasionally, or whenever, his instincts will win out under the right circumstances. It is no different with a rooster who is well mannered. This is for all of you who say you trust your rooster, and snuggle him close. I know my rooster experience has not made for trust on either side of the relationship, but I don't think a rooster, like any wild or domestic animal, should be fully trusted. Someday those instincts will kick in, and if your guard is not up anything can happen. I was a single inch from a serious eye injury or worse because I let me guard down. My rooster was "trustworthy" when being carried... ...until he tore into my eyebrow with his beak. Your rooster may not have the level of aggression that mine has, but he will always have his instincts.

I welcome any further thoughts or opposition ( :

 

[donrae]

I really wish everyone who keeps a rooster could observe two roosters living together in one flock and see how they interact with each other. The dominance/submission they show is great, and would be a great learning tool for those keeping roosters. I guess I'm just naturally dominant with my animals and have never really had much issue, but it's nice to see what I'm doing is the same thing the older, dominant rooster does also. I'm talking mostly about making the beta bird move away from me, not allowing them any dominant behavior, etc.

guernsi, I liked your post above. I think it shows a great step toward treating your rooster as livestock, vs treating him as a pet. I think that's what gets most folks here in trouble with their roosters, is expecting them to be pets and act like dogs or children instead of chickens. And, attributing them emotions and higher thought processes!