My Beloved Roo Is Becoming A Problem...despite all attempts to turn him around.

[Penny Hen]

I really wish everyone who keeps a rooster could observe two roosters living together in one flock and see how they interact with each other. The dominance/submission they show is great, and would be a great learning tool for those keeping roosters. I guess I'm just naturally dominant with my animals and have never really had much issue, but it's nice to see what I'm doing is the same thing the older, dominant rooster does also. I'm talking mostly about making the beta bird move away from me, not allowing them any dominant behavior, etc.

guernsi, I liked your post above. I think it shows a great step toward treating your rooster as livestock, vs treating him as a pet. I think that's what gets most folks here in trouble with their roosters, is expecting them to be pets and act like dogs or children instead of chickens. And, attributing them emotions and higher thought processes!

I don't think it is the lack of intellect that makes chickens (and other birds) so different. Some longer lived birds like parrots can eventually really converse with you not just mimic. A high school friend of mine's family inherited a parrot from a great-uncle. It was 60 years old. It would squeal on my friend when she lied to her mother shouting, "Regina lie! Regina lie!". She took to covering his cage if she was doing something forbidden. The key is that we are mammals and they are avians. There thought processes are alien to us. Their brains are not patterned the same way a mammal brain is. I always found it fascinating that in the old fairy tales that if you ate the heart of a dragon that you would understand the speech of birds. Now science thinks that birds came from the dinosaurs (dragons).

I found Ky's blog very enlightening. I have a rooster that is not as aggressive as this Austrolorp but is a bully to the hens and lesser cockerals (one died young and the other went to live in the woods because he didn't want to be the mean roos ***** anymore). Instead of courting the young pullets he just runs them down and jumps on trying to pin them and pulls out their feathers. They shriek and squawk and run and hide. One day after see him spend most of the day running down the pullets and pulling feathers I caught him up and pinned his wings to his side and pulled the feathers on his neck and pinned him to the ground and tapped his butt a couple times. Then I turned him loose and ran him all over for a while. He has toned down this behavior a bit At least when he knows I am outside.

And as Ky says in his blog it is about fear. Rufus has an inferiority complex because the pullets prefer the other rooster, Long John Silver. Of course that is because Long John doesn't try to bang them 24/7 and he shares his food with them. Rufus just doesn't get it. He has taken to calling the girls over when he finds some food but as soon as they come he jumps them before they can even eat.

 

[azygous]

Donrae, I don't mean to minimize your ability to understand chickens, but some chickens really are more intelligent than their peers and can communicate their emotions and needs to us humans if we tune into it. They also have a language complete with syntax that humans can understand if they take the time to learn to listen.

I have a problem hen, probably a problem because she is very intelligent, who has learned to do just what I describe above. When she got her pinless peepers for the first time, she was loathe to push the pop hole flaps apart to enter the coop, so she would stand outside the door and look up at me, crying, "Caw, caw, caw" until I held the flaps open for her to enter. Currently she's having trouble at roosting time because of four Sussex gang bangers beating her up. She now out-waits all the others at roosting time, standing outside the coop for me to come do the evening bed check. Flo looks up at me and goes, "Caw, caw, caw," a bit different from her door flap "caw", and I carry her around to the coop entrance and install her on the perch as far away from the delinquents as I can get her.

I had a long e-mail from Ky yesterday, and he filled me in on the status of his flock. Understand that he has a large flock of only roosters since he runs a rooster rescue. Many, if not most, are problem roos. He describes the strategy he recently employed to get a real bully roo he'd just acquired to mello out and quit beating up all the others. He put him in a small crate with the most alpha roo, forcing them to get along since there was no other alternative. It worked, and the problem roo mellowed out enough to get along after his confinement. I may give this a try with Flo and her nemesis and see what happens.

Go ahead and e-mail Ky [email protected] if you need help with a problem roo. He almost always responds right away and is immensely helpful.

 

[OlyChickenGuy]

Okay, I admit I haven't read any of the replies - only the main post, so forgive me for butting in, but I'm on a library computer and only have eight minutes to outline this.

I rescue roosters. I've rescued aggressive roosters and rehabilitated them. I have a fighting cock that now lives happily with twenty other roosters and a turkey ( tom ). I have a rooster that put his previous owner in the hospital and is now a doll - literally, small children can pick him up and hug him without incident. Most of my birds I get because they were "beginning" to behave aggressively, either charging or jumping at people, but are sweethearts with me.

Just a quick note - I've developed my own training and taming techniques based on Cesar Millan's ( the Dog Whisperer ) techniques, so if you're familiar with him, you'll see a lot of parallels with what I do compared to what he does. Millan's techniques are basically made up of two ingredients: Calm + assertive energy AND dog psychology. Firstly, we replace "dog" with "chicken", and as I've learned "chicken" can be just about any ground-dwelling galliform, so far as psychology goes. In my experience turkeys, peafowl, pheasants, and quail all respond well to my techniques.

So firstly, we MUST understand what "calm" is and BECOME it - by fearing your beloved pet, you are feeding his OWN insecurities! HE IS AFRAID OF YOU, and his aggression is naught but a means of GETTING YOU AWAY FROM HIM BECAUSE YOUR FEAR SCARES HIM. Then when you back down or act fearful yourself, he senses that you are failing at being a dominant flock member, and in the minds of animals there are only two options: Dominance, or submission. There is no grey area, there is no "freedom" at being given "free will" or "options" - this just confuses animals, and adds to their neurosis. If you're not being dominant, he HAS to fill the void - this is how it is for ALL animals!

( Woo! The library staff was kind and gave me another hour, so HERE WE GO!! )

But let's look at domestication, what it is, what it means, and how it affects a domesticated animal first, shall we? Domestication is a process that takes place over many, many generations, and it creates a physiological and psychological variant on the wild animal that the domesticated animal is descended from. The domestication process actually creates a psychological and physical DEPENDENCY on humans! The animals CANNOT live a psychologically fulfilled life without humans! Part of that dependency is that it is bred into the animal to look up to humans as dominant figureheads of their lives, but many humans of modern times FAIL TO FULFILL THIS ROLE. That means the animal becomes neurotic and attempts to fill the role themselves, which often manifests as aggression and obsessive behaviors, such as feather-picking, chewing, obsessively beating up other animals, turning circles obsessively, urinating or defecating in areas they usually wouldn't, OCD-like behaviors such as moving all bedding to a certain area, collecting and stashing toys, and so forth. Almost all "odd" animal behaviors are rooted in neurosis of some sort.

How do we know that domestication causes physiological and psychological changes? Well, there are many, many ways we know this, but the experiment that stuck out the most to me was a Russian experiment with silver foxes. Russian scientists wanted to try to reproduce the conditions of wolves evolving into dogs, so they took silver foxes and bred them - initially STRICTLY for good temperament. As they bred some foxes for specifically calm traits, they also bred foxes for specifically aggressive traits just to see what would happen. The aggressive foxes had no specific changes whatsoever, but the calm and submissive foxes began to change! They changed colour, their behavior became more tame and dog-like, and they even began to bark and whine like dogs! These foxes became happy and excited to see their human care-takers, eager to please, and enjoyed being handled. For more information, I just found the Wikipedia article here: [link]

That being said, chickens are domesticated animals, and domesticated animals NEED HUMAN INTERVENTION to live happy, fulfilled lives. We MUST be dominant, we MUST take up our roles as not only their care-givers, but their livelihood-givers! WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE ANIMALS, it is our JOB to not only take care of them physically, but psychologically as well.

So how do you show dominance? There are many people who believe in the archaic techniques of pain = submission. Look at capitol punishment - the psychology behind it was that torture created a healthy fear and respect of authority. After all, would YOU want YOUR hand cut off for stealing a measly apple? Is that apple worth your hand? But again and again sociological studies have showed that firm but gentle discipline works better, brings up moral and loyalty, and supports self-esteem of lower-ranking people than harsh, iron-fisted punishment. And here's some vocabulary for you: "Punishment" is from emotion, it is based in anger or fear and has no logic, and is thus difficult to learn from. "Discipline" is methodical, and easily equated to certain things. Imagine a parent who disciplines their children for stealing a cookie from a cookie jar by putting them into a time-out for five minutes - and does this EVERY SINGLE TIME the child steals a cookie from the jar, versus a parent who sometimes lets the cookie-thief slip away "unnoticed", and other times flies into a rage and hits the child, but there is no consistency to this punishment and the fear created IS NOT RESPECT - it's only fear, and fear makes us want to figure out how to CIRCUMVENT it, not respect and avoid it.

So you have to be firm and CONSISTENT. You have to give the same discipline for the same behavior, no matter what. Consistency and patience are what it takes to form long-lasting and strong bonds and relationships with both animals and people. You want your animal to respect you, not fear you - fear is a ticking time-bomb, and though the animal COULD go its whole life never attacking you again, it could also cause the animal to self-destruct, psychologically-speaking. They could just snap one day, or in their fear they could see an opportunity one day and go all out in attack-mode. Fear is NOT a sustainable approach for training ANY animal - humans included! But an excess of cuddles and love only helps to ENCOURAGE the neurotic behavior, too, because when the animal is tense and aggravated, and you then give it praise, treats, and physical contact, you are sending this message to your pet: "I like you in this state of mind. Look at how much I like when you behave like this! I'm giving you treats for behaving like this!" You are NOT comforting your animal, and you are NOT calming them down - you're just telling them that it's totally okay and cool to be upset and neurotic.

I believe in a healthy balance of both positive and negative reinforcement. The same outcome can, ultimately, be achieved through either pure positive OR negative reinforcement, but without balancing them both, it will take much longer and your success isn't guaranteed. My "negative" reinforcement is a way to "disagree" with a behavior - I'm not beating the animal, or specifically LOOKING for reasons to discipline it, but I will CLEARLY tell the animal that I AM NOT PLEASED with its behavior, and I won't be shy about it, either. My "positive" reinforcement is a way to "agree" with a behavior - to tell the animal that what it is doing is good, and I appreciate it. Both reinforcement techniques are used in ways similar to how chickens would interact with each other ( again, Millan's idea is to use "dog language" to speak to dogs, so we're doing the same here with chickens ).

If I want to disagree with a chicken, I do to my chickens what they do to each other - they peck or bite, but watch them and you'll find that it's usually not very hard, and usually just once does the trick. I use one or two fingers, and jab at the bird I'm disciplining, or gently "kick" them ( I use my toes or the toe of my shoe to nudge at them or push them a little bit so they get the hint ). I only "hit" hard enough for them to NOTICE. A gentle touch isn't going to get much attention, but a single, little jab is usually enough to redirect their attention - and that's all we're doing when disciplining, is redirecting their attention from their bad behavior. If they're truly terrorizing me, someone else, or something else, I grab the bird, pinch the skin on the back of their neck ( they have a scruff like a cat, so you're NOT PINCHING TO HURT, just to get a hold of their head so you can control where it is ), and while ALSO holding the bird's back ( if you hold JUST the neck or head, they can seriously injure themselves trying to get away from you ), and I hold them still until they calm down. Did I say "until they stop struggling"? No, I said "calm down" - and that's a key, because the first SEVERAL times you do this, they'll have NO IDEA what you're doing, because you've never done it before, so they'll struggle A LOT, and once they stop struggling, you go to adjust your grip or let go, and they WILL start to fight all over again! Keep hold of them until you can SEE that they are breathing easier, their heart beat is normal, and they are CALM. You may have to let go and hold onto them several times in one "pick up" as they get used to this form of discipline. The other thing I do is if the bird is prone to biting, I might flick their beak - again, we're NOT TRYING TO HURT THE BIRD, just get their attention. If the bird bites again, it is NOT because you failed at getting their attention - it's that they're not used to you being dominant, so they are TESTING whether or not you really mean what you're saying. And oh yes - they will test you! It is ingrained in animals to ALWAYS test their boundaries, so this is a LIFE-LONG, LIFE-STYLE change you are making to yourself to devote yourself to being a calm, assertive person EVERYWHERE ALWAYS. Honestly, it will make your WHOLE LIFE a heck of a lot easier, though, because even humans are animals, and even humans will be inclined to follow you if you lead.

Once you are confident that you have disciplined your chicken, he has understood his discipline, and has calmed down, begin gently stroking his cheeks, or neck. For beginners, the neck as a gentle "neck massage" is probably the best thing for you to do - chickens love neck massages, and you will know he's happy when his belly begins to tremble, or he gently picks up his wing so that you can scratch the underside of the bend of his wing. As your relationship grows, begin to gently stroke his cheek, around his eyes, his earlobes, wattles, and comb, and they LOVE when you scratch their ears! I actually stick my finger right into their ears and gently rub in circles right on the opening of their ears, and they'll close their eyes and tilt their heads for you. If they shake their heads, they're not upset, they're just getting used to the contact - if they close their eyes, tremble their bellies, or gently lift their wings when you scratch at them, you know you're doing something right. If they squeal, or "purr" ( it sounds like a cross between a pigeon cooing and a cat purring ) you REALLY know you're doing something right! Once he comes to enjoy his being picked up, begin to feed him treats WHILE holding him! If he bites your hand, just remember that this isn't aggressive, he just doesn't know the difference between your hand and the treat. I've taught my boys the difference by gently bopping at their beaks or heads when they accidentally bite my hand, and once you have a solid relationship with them, they'll be aware of your mood and if I say, "Ow!" or, "That hurt!" they'll actually stop and peck at what's in my hands more gently.

Another thing to do with an aggressive bird is to NEVER, EVER back away from them! When you move AWAY from the bird, you create an opening that says, "COME AT ME!!" The bird sees this as a submissive gesture, and will attempt to claim dominance upon it. Instead, when the bird comes at you, jumps at you, or what-have-you, move TOWARDS it. Always towards it! I have some house mates that my birds have begun to challenge because they are very submissive and afraid of the birds, but we've all experienced a great deal of success when I taught them to always move towards the bird. I also tell them that if they're afraid the bird is going to jump at them, to kick out their feet at the birds like a goose-stepping march - that creates a distraction, and obstructs the air-space for the bird to jump in. The problem with this approach is that a lot of people unconsciously lean back when they put their foot back down, which is moving away from the bird, which opens them up for attack. Keep moving forward, keep marching like a dork, and you'll see the confusion almost immediately as the bird puffs up, flaps, turns in circles, runs away a few steps only to come back at you, then run away again, but once the bird flattens its feathers and runs away without intent of coming back, you've "won" the challenge and can stop looking like someone from Monty Python making fun of Nazis. Also, raise your arms and "flap" them - it'll make YOU look bigger, too, but be careful that if you're not FEELING dominant, this can come off as a challenge, and never continue to follow the bird once he's submitted, because then you'll be seen as trying to instigate a full-on fight.

So to summarize, be CALM and ASSERTIVE, which creates what animals recognize as a "dominant energy". Always move forward - never away. Discipline to disagree with bad behaviours, and give affection and treats to agree with good behaviours. Sounds easy enough, but it takes PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE. Oh, and some more patience. And CONSISTENCY. Now go out there and PRACTISE your new knowledge, techniques, and abilities, and adjust accordingly to your personal situation!

Good luck, and I'll try to check back in now and again to see how things are going.

 

[donrae]

I'll just nicely agree to disagree with the folks that say chickens are capable of higher thought processes and emotions. I'm truly glad the OP is having success with her rooster and with that I'm exiting this thread.

 

[WalkingOnSunshine]

I'll just nicely agree to disagree with the folks that say chickens are capable of higher thought processes and emotions. I'm truly glad the OP is having success with her rooster and with that I'm exiting this thread.

I agree wholeheartedly with donrae on this one. I've raised African Grey parrots, and I have chickens. There is no comparison between the two. Birds are not all the same and a chicken does not have the intellectual capacity of a parrot or a raven even though they are all birds.

I am also glad that the OP is having success retraining her rooster, and I am also bowing out.

Thanks for the lively discussion, all.

 

[guernsi]

OlyChickenGuy, THANK YOU ! Thank you for this wonderfully detailed post. After lots of thought and reading posts from other people's experience, I have made progress with my roo (Saul Skookum Spurs) in the last two weeks, at least in reestablishing dominance. But your post really solidifies some ideas for me. You basically have posted the information I have been trying to figure out through my many frustrations with my roo for the last year. And at my wits end I almost sent him away to another farm... ...but something in me said I should continue trying. After several years working in a veterinary clinic, I have become a firm believer that animal problems are actually people problems, people who don't know how to read what an animal is saying to them, and therefore respond inappropriately. Despite my good faith attempts, I've been one of those ignorant people. And largely, I think a lot of folks are, because of the lack of understanding of what I guess should be deemed rooster psychology.

Thank you for taking the time to write your ideas down on this forum. I think a lot of people can learn from this if they are willing to put in the time and effort. I'll try the positive and negative reinforcement strategies you described, with consistency. Once there is something more to detail, you can expect an update !

Cheers !

 

[OlyChickenGuy]

I'm writing this on my phone right now, so please forgive my lack of verbosity for now, but I've decided that I'm going to bring you something no one else here has brought to this discussion regarding supporting or denying personal experiences. I shall now load you up with a whole bunch of SCIENCE!! Yes, indeed! Real science done by real scientists who have delved deep into the world of chicken intelligence, emotions, and cognitive abilities - but before you scoff and decide that I'm off my rocker, please remember that ANY behavior is what we make of it! We know this because of studies done with children who've been told all their lives that they're failures - the parents view failing behaviors BECAUSE THEY'RE LOOKING FOR THEM, and thus see what they want to see. We treat animals much the same way - do you want to believe that your dog is stupid? Then it's stupid, and nothing can be done about it - but wait! Someone else believes the dog is smart and treats it accordingly, and suddenly it's an incredibly capable and smart dog! We tend to just allow ourselves to believe that the dogs stupidness was no fault of our own, but rather the other person is just a "miracle worker", but that's just plain lazy.

I've worked as a certified veterinary assistant before dedicating my life to rehabilitating roosters, and I can very much attest that animal problems ARE people-derived, and that fear-based aggression is a very real thing. That being said, here's a bunch of interesting articles on chicken behavior:

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1666/2451.full <-- "Arithmetic in New Born Chicks" - yes, baby chickens have more advanced cognitive abilities than human newborns. That sounds harsh, but this study PROVES it, not merely speculates. Just remember that as human babies age, they surpass their chick counterparts pretty easily after awhile.

http://www.chickencoopguides.com/articles/chickens-intelligent-beings/ <-- just some snippets of interesting chicken intelligence trivia. I read the original "chickens controlling a thermostat" article a long time ago, but I can't find it right now, boo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...le-of-feeling-empathy-scientists-believe.html <-- Chickens - at least hens to their chicks - feel empathy. I'd link to the actual Bristol University article, but my phone is an archaic piece of junk that sometimes decides it doesn't want to load THAT page...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/music-soothes-funky-chicken-1171155.html <-- Again, I can't find the original article I read, but chickens can recognize music, and have preferences. The original article also suggested that they can recognize beats, and will even move differently to different genres, suggesting "dancing" behaviours. I don't know if I'll buy that chickens dance, but they're certainly intelligent enough to recognize patterns like beats.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2005/07/15/1415178.htm <-- Chickens can anticipate the future, and plan accordingly.

There was one study I've been trying hard to find, but I can only find the unfortunately twisted PETA version. Basically, it's another Bristol University study that suggested chickens are actually capable of teaching culture to their chicks. The hens were fed blue and yellow corn, and the blue corn was infused with a mild poison that made the hens feel sick, until they ended up avoiding the blue corn all together. Once their chicks hatched, again the blue corn was present, but this time harmless, yet the hens drove their chicks away from it. These chicks also taught their chicks the same trait.

Another one I couldn't find was the article about chicken language. Basically, all chickens "say" the same things - a long, loud squawk means something is flying over head, a chortle is a sort of indignant response almost, a muffled, avid clucking basically means, "There's good food over here!" and so forth. However, between different flocks a sort of regional accent and syntax develops - I've certainly noticed this, having a flock made up of many different birds from many different flocks.


I would like to note that I have attempted to cull any article related to PETA in any way, as they tend to twist information to their own benefit, and are very well-recognized as producing psudoscience instead of any real works. Much of PETA's so-called "proof" of whatever they're trying to prove has been not only disputed or disproved, but on occasion even proven as all-out hoaxes, so I deeply distrust their "science", and deeply disagree with their entire existence. I am not in any way a PETA supporter.

Anyway, just some interesting things to think about and consider.

 

[carrieb62]

I have always believed since I was a little kid that animals, whether they are my pets or someone else's animals, even wild creatures - that they are not, what's the word for it? Inferior? Just because I think this way doesn't mean that I have a "don't kill the poor thing" policy. I grew up on a farm harvesting rabbits & goats & chickens for food - and if I have to kill an animal for food, so be it, but it does not happen without some form of quiet prayer to the Creator to give thanks for having a meal on the table! I also know when it's time to put a suffering animal out of it's misery - like this past spring I had a hen that ended up with what appeared to be a broken rib & punctured lung, I fired my pistol - not anyone else! AND finally, I also know when it is truly necessary to kill another animal to "protect my livestock"!

My animals serve me a purpose in so many ways than just to be my "pets" - I am grateful for the eggs they give me, they bugs they eat (I'm allergic to stinging insects & used to have a phobia about being outside!), and the many laughs they bring me. I don't view having to tend to them everyday morning & night as a "chore" - they keep me moving, they are a welcome and pleasant distraction from the pain I feel everyday from Fibromyalgia! I am grateful to have them in my life - even if it means having to kneel down in poop to fix a coop! They day they stop serving a purpose in my life is when I know it is time to stop having them around me - and I don't foresee this happening for quite a long time - if ever!!!

And thank you for your input OlyChickenGuy!!!

 

[happyfrenchman]

Gurnsi.... I have read all these posts... I don't think it is in doubt that chickens are pretty intelligent. Just watching them one could easily come to that conclusion... I feel they are also to a large degree in sway to their instincts. Their intelligence might make them amenable to being trained, but their instincts also play a role and I think probably trump their intellect...Your effort to salvage your bird has been a good one.

I have killed many a rooster....I have culled a few that were quite ornery. Or too hard on the hens. I have given away quite a few on Craigslist, because I thought they were nice birds I didn't want to kill them if someone else might appreciate them. But it is an inescapable fact of chickenry, that you have to get rid of roosters. Put him on Craigslist, with an honest description of his traits. Someone might want him. If you have to kill him... make it as quick and clean as you are able. That is a part of your obligation when you take up any kind of animal husbandry endeavor.

It depends on your objectives. If you just want a peaceful backyard flock, this fellow is apparently not the guy for you.... It is not a failure if you are unable to take the fight out of a rooster... that is their nature. Some are more mellow than others. Find yourself a new one. Best wishes.

 

[Penny Hen]

I wonder what the rooster would do if put in a small cage and had to listen to the Barney song all day?

P.S.: I used to have a screen saver that killed Barney the Dinosaur in 15 different ways.